17-03-2003 18:15									#1
	Post-War Iraq: Should we help? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

This is directed mainly to those who (or their countries) oppose the war, esp. us Eurocoms

Should those nations participate in the rebuilding of Iraq after the war? I´m quite undecided about that. In Germany there are some government voices who say we could/should help (eg. our minister of defense), despite the current anti-war position of our government. I´m not happy about the war, however, once it is over, shouldn´t there be collective efforts to make the best out of it?

What´s the official position in other European countries, what´s your personal opinion?

Mods: I know new Iraq threads don´t survive long these days, but since it is not about the war itself, more about the post-war situation....

	17-03-2003 18:19									#2
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We have promised to help re-build and send peace keepers.

	17-03-2003 18:21									#3
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There's a strong temptation to let the US clean up what they have messed up for no reason. It would be more rational and in our own interest though to support the reconstruction.

I'm just very sceptical that appropriate agreements on this could be made with or would be upheld by the Bush administration.

	17-03-2003 18:24									#4
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I'm undecided myself on this subject. One half of me says, let the yanks and their sycophants rebuild what they destroyed. The other half says, this wouldn't be right to let the iraqi people suffer for the wrong of other nations. Tough decision, but in the end I probably would agree to a help in rebuilding.

	17-03-2003 18:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by HershOstropoler There's a strong temptation to let the US clean up what they have messed up for no reason. It would be more rational and in our own interest though to support the reconstruction. I'm just very sceptical that appropriate agreements on this could be made with or would be upheld by the Bush administration.

I strongly agree

	17-03-2003 18:27									#6
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Its not a question of helping the Iraqis. The people of Iraq will be be helped whoever gets involved in reconstruction. The question is should the Germans and rench get any of the contracts. If I was in the new Iraqi government I would be more likely to award a contract to the country that got rid of the dictator in my country, rather than the ones who were happy for him to remain.

	17-03-2003 18:36									#7
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Its not a question of helping the Iraqis.

That is exactly my question.

quote: The question is should the Germans and rench get any of the contracts. If I was in the new Iraqi government I would be more likely to award a contract to the country that got rid of the dictator in my country, rather than the ones who were happy for him to remain.

I´m not aware someone in Europe expressed happiness about Saddam...

	17-03-2003 18:42									#8
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To an Iraqi it might very weel seem that France and Germany were happy for him to stay.

	17-03-2003 18:50									#9
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger To an Iraqi it might very weel seem that France and Germany were happy for him to stay.

And, to an Iraqi, it would seem that the USA, Britain, and co. is happy to blow up their homes and kill their friends and relatives.

	17-03-2003 18:55									#10
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If the war is short and csaualties light who do you think the average Iraqi is gonna thank. France or the US.

	17-03-2003 18:59									#11
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There may be some initial euphoria for the US and the UK, but whatever comes next is bound to make a lot of people unhappy. Gratitude isn't exactly a strong political force...

	17-03-2003 19:00									#12
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger If the war is short and csaualties light who do you think the average Iraqi is gonna thank. France or the US.

I think they'll thank whatever they believe in that they're still alive. I wouldn't expect them to have gratitude to either side - why should they be greatful of the first world counties who live on the other side of the world and decide their fate?


By the way, there was alot of refugees from the fist gulf war at the Toronto peace protest.

	17-03-2003 19:01									#13
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Of course we will help.
Nothing to do with contracts gained, nothing to do with letting US/UK clean up their own mess.
It's about being human and humane.

I know there are some hundred volunteers, mostly doctors, mine sweepers (the profession, not the game, stupid!) standing ready to go the very instant war breaks out. Only from my own li'l country, that is.

quote: If I was in the new Iraqi government I would be more likely to award a contract to the country that got rid of the dictator in my country, rather than the ones who were happy for him to remain.

Well. History would say:
If I was in the new XXX government I would be more likely to award a contract to the country that INSTALLED ME AS dictator in my country...

But I digress.


C.

	17-03-2003 19:02									#14
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger If the war is short and csaualties light who do you think the average Iraqi is gonna thank. France or the US.

Perhaps they would be really thankful if they see that all those countries do something for them once the war has ended...which brings us back (from your trolls ) to the topic

	17-03-2003 19:02									#15
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Countries that have lived under repression which then become free in part due to the actions of third parties tend to be grateful( Of course the French are the exception here). They won't want French or German help in rebuilding their country.

	17-03-2003 19:04									#16
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quote: Originally posted by catullus Of course we will help. Nothing to do with contracts gained, nothing to do with letting US/UK clean up their own mess. It's about being human and humane. I know there are some hundred volunteers, mostly doctors, mine sweepers (the profession, not the game, stupid!) standing ready to go the very instant war breaks out. Only from my own li'l country, that is. Well. History would say: If I was in the new XXX government I would be more likely to award a contract to the country that INSTALLED ME AS dictator in my country... But I digress. C.

Saddam installed himself, and was initaily supported by the SU( the Baath party being socialist in theory) Hence his tanks and planes are Russain.

	17-03-2003 19:05									#17
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"They won't want French or German help in rebuilding their country."

They'll want every help they can get, and they'll like the added bonus of not being too dependent of one particular country that will try to have a very tight grip on the new government anyway.

	17-03-2003 19:08									#18
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Saddam installed himself, and was initaily supported by the SU( the Baath party being socialist in theory) Hence his tanks and planes are Russain.

You know, there were a lot more countries which supported him, or at least had economical ties to him. Unfortunately, Germany was one of them, but guess how the USA behaved at the time when they thought they needed him...

	17-03-2003 19:10									#19
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Didn't the list of companies that will rebuild Iraq consist solely of American ones with maybe one or two exceptions? Certainly there were no British companies on the list when it was used to embarass Blair in PM's question time.

So the war was about...

Oil
Installing Democracy
Ridding the World of WoMD
Going back to beat the one who beat daddy
Oil

and now its...

creating lucrative contracts for ailing American construction firms!

	17-03-2003 19:12									#20
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yah

but we learned are lesson

why haven't you?

Jon Miller

	17-03-2003 19:12									#21
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quote: Originally posted by TheStinger Countries that have lived under repression which then become free.

I thought we where talking about Iraq here... one of the most modern and progressive nations in the region (not that that's saying much), and a place that will soon be ruled by the US military, or whichever enterprising dictator they think they can trust.

Just look at Saudi Arabia or Israel to see how much peace and freedom USA support brings.


Iraqis have lived under repression and will continue to live under repression, a few interludes of bombing and war isn't going to help their situation any.


EDIT: To emphasize my point, and to keep on topic : I don't think Iraqis will be grateful towards anyone in this war, and they are going to be pretty pissed off with the west in general (I do not think they will differentiate between france and the USA, they are all playing games with them and deciding their fate). Rebuilding their homes after you blow them up isn't going to make them feel any better.

	17-03-2003 19:18									#22
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Of the countries which the US liberated in WW2 had dictators. Even though strong right wing dictators would have been in the US's interest.

	17-03-2003 19:22									#23
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Err, I´m not sure what the point is...

	17-03-2003 19:26									#24
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The question is really who is going to pay for the reconstruction of Iraq in the short term?

Eventually the oil production will be put back on its feet and the Iraqi government at that time will have money but estimates vary on how many years that is going to take and how much it will cost.

In the short term there will be a need for foreign aid and support. The test is whether it is a US monopoly (and the Iraqi government a US puppet) or whether all those who wish to assist are allowed to do so and the Iraqi government can choose where it gets help from.

This is the issue IMHO that will show whether the talk of a democratic beacon in the ME is genuine or not.

	17-03-2003 19:29									#25
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Err, I´m not sure what the point is...

the point is that the US will ensure there is democratic government in Iraq

	17-03-2003 19:31									#26
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The question is really who is going to pay for the reconstruction of Iraq in the short term? Eventually the oil production will be put back on its feet and the Iraqi government at that time will have money but estimates vary on how many years that is going to take and how much it will cost. In the short term there will be a need for foreign aid and support. The test is whether it is a US monopoly (and the Iraqi government a US puppet) or whether all those who wish to assist are allowed to do so and the Iraqi government can choose where it gets help from. This is the issue IMHO that will show whether the talk of a democratic beacon in the ME is genuine or not.

I beleive they will be free to chose who to deal with, but because the US got rid of saddam they will wnat to deal with them rather than those who were content for him to stay

	17-03-2003 19:31									#27
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You surely mean "democratic".

	17-03-2003 19:45									#28
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If it's successful on a short order, I would expect France and Germany to be eager to contribute. If unsuccessful and a long war, I would expect France and Germany to refrain. This would be directly contrary to the interests of the Iraqis, of course (i.e., if nothing's destroyed, no help needed), but would be prudent from France and Germany's perspective.

	17-03-2003 20:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV The question is really who is going to pay for the reconstruction of Iraq in the short term?

This is the important point.

Yesterday, the EU Commissaire Pascal Lamy said that, considering the division between EU members on the issue, it will be difficult for the EU as such to finance the reconstruction. That leaves room for national help only.

	17-03-2003 20:23									#30
	Re: Post-War Iraq: Should we help? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

There is a hypocricy involved.

First we say (us Europeans - Brits apart) we don't want the war.

For countries like France this is because of

_ nice oil contracts already in place with Iraq


For other big countries like Germany it is because

_huge cost of the former war on the gulf.


As an example the countries which payed for the previous war were:

Germany
Japan
Saudi Arabia

and at the bottom of the list only it was the US.


So there are reasons other than preventing the slaughter of hundrends of thousands by the angloamerican bombs.


Now,
despite all this, and maybe because of this - this gives a window of explanation in real politik terms,

we allow the use of NATO bases on our soil.


If we are against the war we shouldn't.

But we do because we are realists.

BUT, we do not (we as for France, Germany and other big countries) want to pay for this war.


This is one of the major reasons for not giving consent.

If the US/UK go alone they know, they'll pay for everything.


And they should.

We allow use of NATO bases (and even provide military support as we speak in the region itself) OTOH we don't want to be burdened with the cost of a war we don't agree with.


In short the answer is hell no.


P.S. our gov's real politik interests shouldn't drift our eyes away from the ball which is the slaughter of hundrend of thousands by the agloamericans for no reason at all besides american hegemony and oil exploration.

A murder for oil.

For that we oppose the war and for that we support anyone who opposes it too.