18-03-2003 00:51									#1
	OFFICIAL: Trade Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Now we have invented trade, a new part of the game opens up for us. We can now start building Caravans and establish trade routes with those, thus increasing our income (in Gold).

It takes between 4 and 9 turns to build a Caravan, depending on where we build it. Below is a screen that displays the costs of Caravans if we were to switch *right now* (overwriting existing build queues). Switching to Caravans right now may not be a good idea (that's for the Minister of Domestic Affairs to decide), but it gives an impression of the cost in each city.

In the other two screens you see the cost in Caravans to establish trade routes. For the domestic routes, 1 option per trade good is displayed, as there are no better alternatives available. For the foreign routes, two alternatives are displayed per trade good: some give less income but cost less Caravans to establish (once again, no better alternatives are available).

This poll is to determine how many Caravans we should build in the short to medium term. When and where exactly Caravans are built is to be decided by the Minister of Domestic Affairs, but this thread is to decide how much of our production capacity we wish to invest in trade in the next turn chat(s).

Note that if we restrict ourselves to domestic trade, we greatly reduce the risk of loosing income due to piracy. The downside of this is obvious from the screenshots: domestic routes are less profitable. Routes to Muir of Ord and Dunbar are likely to run through Austrian territory and therefore have a very high risk of being pirated. The other international routes are all likely to run through German (possibly Indian) territory, whose attitude to piracy is difficult to gauge at this point.

If we restrict ourselves to domestic trade, 7 Caravans will suffice for a full trade network. If we want to maximize profits (assuming piracy will not become a major problem), we would need 28 Caravans. Of course, we don't have to maximize the profits and we don't have to utilize all goods at this point (or at all). Also note that we have two Settlers, which are likely to found cities near trade goods and with that increase the number of tradable goods available in the near future.

So vote here on how many Caravans we should ideally build in the not-too-distant future. Of course, you can also vote not to trade at all in the near future by voting 0. This poll will remain open for 5 days (until 22 March, 20:00ish GMT), though the first effects of the vote might already affect the next turn chat, in 2 days. Please also feel free to post if we should focus on foreign or domestic trade, to suggest what routes specifically we should try to establish and/or to discuss any other trade related issues here.

Last edited by Locutus on 18-03-2003 at 01:01

	18-03-2003 00:59									#2
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Myself, I say build 10ish routes: build a full domestic trade network (foreign trade is IMO too risky at this point) and make a maximum profit with that network. We'll need 7 Caravans for our existing Trade Goods and I estimate an additional 3-5 Caravans for the new cities we'll be founding/conquering.

	18-03-2003 01:04									#3
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First screen: cost of Caravans if we switch immediately.

Attachment: trade_car.png
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	18-03-2003 01:05									#4
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Second Screen: Potential Domestic Trade Routes.

Attachment: trade_dom.png
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	18-03-2003 01:06									#5
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Third Screen: Potential Foreign Trade Routes.

Attachment: trade_for.png
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	18-03-2003 02:01									#6
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IMO we need to build caravans for all our national trade routes so I would vote for 7 caravans though I am against building them immediately as we are desperately in need of military units. I think we should decide to build them progressively (route by route and possibly with cities producing at the same speed) and on a case by case basis during the Turn Chats.

	18-03-2003 03:28									#7
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0. Gold ain't worth the production cost.

	18-03-2003 13:13									#8
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I voted 4, but having in mind that military units are the main keypoint rather than the caravans.

	18-03-2003 16:36									#9
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If we can afford to not spend production building military units, then some internal trade might be good. Untill we have sorted out our war with Austria and our standing with the other nations around us then any international trade may be frustrating as we get pirated? So i voted for 7-9, but only if war units are not more valuable.

	18-03-2003 19:16									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat 0. Gold ain't worth the production cost.

It's more than worth the production cost: a small investment in production now can mean a huge increase in our gold income. This in turn can be used to rush-buy a lot of production points in the future, which more than justifies the cost we have to pay now (the only other major use for gold in SAP is diplomacy but that doesn't require a huge treasury).

Of course military units should have precedence but we'll soon have 10 cities cranking out units. We can certainly miss 1 or 2 to build a few Caravans...

	19-03-2003 02:31									#11
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I must second Locutus here, trade will give us a lot of money. Realizing the two most profitable traderoutes will double our current gold income. So a lot of gold means a lot of rush buying. I go for 10 -12 Caravans in the long term so that we have a higher reserve. Foreign trade would be good but the risk is too high.

-Martin

	19-03-2003 03:22									#12
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Can't be bothered to hash this all out again.

I guess it's because I never spend gold that I always seem to have enough

	19-03-2003 13:40									#13
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I usually don’t build caravans as a priority. I only build them in cities that would otherwise lay dormant. However, those 2 big routes are juicy. So I say 4.

	19-03-2003 14:12									#14
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That was my idea as well, also as we only need 2 for each, that would make an easy income.

Foreign trade I wouldn't support in the moment as this is (at least for the moment) far to risky.

For our non CTP2 players:

If you have a trade-route established (inside/outside your borders) any foreign military unit can pirate it, therefore you loose this extra gold. This is not an act of war, you have to ask this foreign nation to stop pirating, but might not work.......

Further information:
This gold is not taken for research, just plain income.

	19-03-2003 14:47									#15
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Voted 0. Unless they take 3 turns or less from start to finish Caravans just take too long at the moment.