18-03-2003 04:05									#1
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To all the Spanish clan leaders:

Our nation has gone through a dangerous time in which our neighbours from the North represented a big menace. We had no choice but to build up our army, to get a chance against them.

Happily, we have reached our objectives, and now we have an army that can stand against an attack from the arabs. We will need to keep improving this army, but now we can devote some of our production to expansion. Soon, Spanish settlers will part again from our cities to unsettled lands, ready to found new cities there.

What we need now it's to develop the best posible plan for how to settle this land. That's why we are asking you to send to the Madrid Palace your own drafts of the expansion plans. Post them at this thread so all the Spanish leaders can see and discuss them.

	21-03-2003 05:16									#2
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My current plan for our next 3 settler is this:

Pamplona 1: Settles "Floodplan City" Leon (SW, SW, S of Saragossa)
Madrid 1: Settles "Spice City" Valencia (coastal tile on NE side of Salt River)
Pamplona 2: Settles "Ivory City" Sevilla (coastal tile SE of Ivory River)

These plans are not set in stone, so please post your own suggestions here.

--Togas

	21-03-2003 06:34									#3
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Good plan!

Aidun Cian the older

	21-03-2003 06:38									#4
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Like Thrumble, I have become attatched to my head, so I will of course know that anything Togas says must be right.

Also, let it be known that I myself would agree with this anyways regardless of who proposed it.

	21-03-2003 07:26									#5
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I hope we found Spice City soon because the squid has been awfully bland lately... I suggest that the first shipment of spice be carried to the Palace by five singing and dancing young women, who can inform us that what we really really want is spice. Somebody else can think of a catchy name for them.

	22-03-2003 01:52									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Togas My current plan for our next 3 settler is this: Pamplona 1: Settles "Floodplan City" Leon (SW, SW, S of Saragossa) Madrid 1: Settles "Spice City" Valencia (coastal tile on NE side of Salt River) Pamplona 2: Settles "Ivory City" Sevilla (coastal tile SE of Ivory River) These plans are not set in stone, so please post your own suggestions here. --Togas

Togas,

As I've already said in the "Cow valley" thread, I'm not sure that the site #1 will be a good immediate choice : "Regarding the military, It would be take long before the #2 city (according to your plan) was able to help building units. Before founding this city, we could place a units stack on this spot ready to go to any border city needing their help". In addition, this city would be quite corrupted, and his productivity low.

Please consider this possibility : If we found a temporary city between Madrid and Barcelona, using some well worked tiles, it will give us a second settler factory, which could really help our country to grow. One of these tiles, the wheat one, could be taken from Madrid, but assuming that we'll be soon under monarchy, it will not really disturb the Madrid growth but will boost the growth of Temp City. This city will have a very little corruption and a good mined hill to quickly produce additional settlers.

(See the image below)

	22-03-2003 02:25									#7
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I generally dislike temporary cities for settler production. It will be many turns, even with the wheat, before we can get 2 settlers out of there and we get a net benefit from this. By the time this occurs, enough time has already passed that all important future city sites are settled already.

	22-03-2003 05:54									#8
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I use to be against temporary cities but in this case I'm starting to like that temporary city idea. If we assume that this city is only intended to produce settlers, and using this 3 tiles, the settler production will be quite quick, specially if we change to Monarchy after turn 82. The ND settler seen by our warriors makes me believe that this city would be useful. Madrid wouldn't suffer from that, because it is already size 5 (6 soon).

	22-03-2003 07:24									#9
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I am intregued by this idea. I am not opposed to overlaping city tiles and I have been pondering for the past few weeks a way for us to build non-corrupt cities near Madrid that will aid us in our long term goal of filling this half of the continent with cities.

This idea is promising, indeed.

--Togas

	22-03-2003 15:37									#10
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In fact, the correct location would be as follow, because a temple would not be needed to work the four red tiles.
This city could produce his first settler in about 14 turns since its foundation, assuming that a worker is send to this area to pre-build mines on the hill #6. If this city is founded with the next Pamplona settler, with the addition of the next Madrid settler we will have two new settlers within the next 22 turns ready to found new cities !!

Since build on a hill, this City would be a good defense point too.

Last edited by astrologix on 22-03-2003 at 21:35

	22-03-2003 16:37									#11
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I wonder if a granary at this city would improve its settler production rate.

	22-03-2003 21:34									#12
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I've built a scenario and calculated how many turns it will take to complete a settler.

I assume that we will be under monarchy when the city is founded, in about 8 turns. And that tile #6 is mined and #5 irrigated (it's possible if one of the workers is send here from the iron tile ASAP). We should have the irrigation first, then the mine.
We need 30 shields for a settler completion.

Whithout a granary, the first settler will be done in 14 turns. And the city will have a 2 pop size back.
If the city had a granary at its first turn (which isn't possible), the first settler could be done in 10 turns, and the city would have a 3 pop size as a result !

My recommendation is to build a first settler as soon as the city is founded, and then to rush a granary before continuing with the settler cycle production, which will be even shorter than exposed above, since the production will begin with a city size of 2 !

	22-03-2003 21:46									#13
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Hey, why worry? Let's wait a hundred more turns to REX...

ND is REXing like mad. GoW has felt us out about them building a city to our south. Vox is now on our continent, and GS could be on the way.

I hate to be an @sshole, but I gonna be since I've had no success convincing anyone with reason.

	22-03-2003 22:06									#14
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ruby_maser, I understand your thoughts, but you don't expose how we could build more cities quickly.

I would like to read your proposals and your timings....

	22-03-2003 22:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix I would like to read your proposals and your timings....

All mine got flushed with that accursed harbor project, but I'll try. Barcelona would build its first Settler next turn. Pamplona (a gimme) will build its in 6. Madrid is going to build one in approximately 7. Thats a total of 3 in 7 turns... not 22.

oh,

	22-03-2003 22:38									#16
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I like Astrologix proposal, provided it does not prevent Madrid to grow up to 7.

To mrmitchell : I am afraid that the Watcher could think that you are refusing to positively cooperate. From that to opposition or worse ...

	22-03-2003 22:59									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ruby_maser All mine got flushed with that accursed harbor project, but I'll try. Barcelona would build its first Settler next turn. Pamplona (a gimme) will build its in 6. Madrid is going to build one in approximately 7. Thats a total of 3 in 7 turns... not 22. oh,

I think we've already talk about the interest to let Barcelona build its granary before the settler. It can seem long, but the benefits will be great. So, for me all in all, I prefer the current Barcelona production to stay as it is.

If we found Temp City with the Pamplona's settler, we will have a huge settler production starting in 22 turns, with a great potential for the coming times. Finally, the next Madrid settler will found his spicy city in about 15 turns. But, don't forget that the more the cities will be found far from Madrid, the more they will be corrupted.

So the choice is, what is the more interesting thing ? : to found distant corrupted cities, or to have cities close to Madrid with a great production potential ?

I don't have the last word myself.

If it was my own game, I would choose the first solution.

I let the people of Spain, and specially our Great Despot, to choose the best way for our country

	22-03-2003 23:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT I like Astrologix proposal, provided it does not prevent Madrid to grow up to 7.

Under monarchy, Madrid will be grow up to 8, maybe 9. But it needs more calculations made...

	22-03-2003 23:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by astrologix I think we've already talk about the interest to let Barcelona build its granary before the settler. It can seem long, but the benefits will be great.

Great for Barcelona... and I assume you mean the Harbor. It is only in fairness to the cities we delay (that could be contributing far sooner) and the Spanish empire as a whole that I object.

quote: So the choice is, what is the more interesting thing ? : to found distant corrupted cities, or to have cities close to Madrid with a great production potential ? I don't have the last word myself.

I would argue that, as much as I hate corrupt cities, the other teams would be willing to put in far more corrupt cities (now that they have the option) in order to deny us land, luxuries, or resources. I haven't run any figures concerning your Temp City though. On a whole, I like the idea 50 turns ago. I now think we have to balance that desire with the need to appear as a stronger presence in the south than what we truly are.

And since the Great Lord generally has a hands-off policy with his cities in favor their governors' opinions, I'm not sure who you think is in charge.

	23-03-2003 02:18									#20
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My thoughts and questions:

Thoughts: Spain needs to both establish high-growth cities AND it needs to settle the spice and ivory lux territories to deny any other nation from getting to them.

Furthermore, Spain needs cities that can produce Settlers ... as we have seen only 2 of our cities are viable settler factories, and I hate relegating Pamplona with the job of settling the whole of Spain. New birthing cities must be made.

I am still in love with the floodplain city, which will be EVEN BETTER under a Monarchy. I want that city built. If nothing else, it will be an ideal worker pump.

I am enthralled with this new hilltop city and I will sign off on the project if I can be assured that it's presence will not stunt Madrid's growth, and will not add to the corruption of Pamplona and Saragossa.

Questions: If we build this new city, where does it go in our build queue? 1st, 2nd, 3rd?

Can this new city be productive w/o a granary?

--Togas

	23-03-2003 07:36									#21
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Togas, I'm aware of your general dislike for Granaries from the SPDG, but there are times that you really need them and this is one of them. People, we do have a lot of terratory still to be settled and Pamplona can't do it alone. We also need to have workers built. We need to increase our porduction bandwidth if we are to keep up with our northern neighbors. And we are running out of time. Even though that city will push back the corruption of all of the other cities, we are going to be changing to Monarchy very soon.

I think that we need to look at if we can afford to wait for this new settler city to be built either now or later (i.e. more cities sooner or more workers sooner). I'm of the opinion that that city northwest of Madrid be the next city to be built and that it needs to be building a granary first.

E_T

	23-03-2003 10:39									#22
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E_T,

Your opinion on these matters is very influential. How strongly do you back this new city plan?

Presently, I would like to see the first Pamplona settler go to Floodplain City, and our first Madrid settler go to this new site.

--Togas

	24-03-2003 02:31									#23
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I have posted my preliminary expansion plans on my Spain page, you may go there, view them, and post your criticism here.

--Togas

	24-03-2003 03:51									#24
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What about the Pyramids? This wonder could help us a lot because we don't have any granary and lots of cities (and we are supposed to have even more).

Just throwing an idea for discussion.

	24-03-2003 19:29									#25
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We should start on wonders soon, and the pyramids are a good one to have.

	24-03-2003 20:30									#26
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But do we have anywhere that is established enough and with enough production to be able to build a Wonder?

	31-03-2003 04:42									#27
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I have changed my mind about our next settlers ...

Great valor and courage was shown by Fernand de History Guy Calamari during the recent uprisings in Spain. He, along with many of the great nobles of Spain defended the nation as well and kept the peace. In my discussions with the nobles after the coronation it was determined that there was no land to grant Fernand, so I have ordered that new lands be taken from wild to give to him.

A city shall be founded to the north of Madrid. (N,N,NW,NW) and this fiefdom shall be given to Duke Calamari to rule over. Due to his bravery and unquestioned loyalty, I wish to keep him close to Madrid, so that he may be quickly called upon in the future.

This city shall be given priority. This city also needs a name. I ask Duke Calamari to consult his history books (and the Spanish members of the team) for a name for this site.

--Togas

	31-03-2003 06:54									#28
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What’s the name of one of the big suburbs of Madrid?

	31-03-2003 17:55									#29
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I think that Alcalá is themost famous Madrid suburb (at least to my memory) but if the primary mission of that city is to pop settlers it should be called Sodoma

	31-03-2003 19:27									#30
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If the mission is to pump out settlers, I'm sorry to say that the best site is NW, NW, NW of Madrid, because it has a hill on its primary radius. With a granary, this city can build a settler every 10 turns.

The site choosen by our King don't has that hill, but a forrest instead. It will need a granary + a temple to build the settlers at the same rate. The other consequence is that with this city founded, the originary "Temp City" becomes useless, since the wheat tile will be used by the "Calamari city".

As a result, we will have some tiles unused until Madrid becomes greater than 12 pop size.

Please reconsider that decision....