18-03-2003 15:49									#1
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Hi everybody...

I'm back with some more questions. Gotta get all the knowledge out of you guys as I can. Plus I'm sure these threads are helping more than just me.

So here's my question, is it worth building coastal fortress, civil defense, and SAM sites? In my latest game, AU206, I managed to play up until Future Tech 1 and then stopped. So just for the heck of it I built 5 SAM sites just to get Integrated Defense(or whatever it's called) But other than that I'd never build a SAM site. But the time civil defense comes along I usually am the only one on my continent or close to it and don't think that the cost justifies me building them. Also I'm usually ahead in techs and my MI can handle some cavalry that's running around. With Coastal Fortresses I find that since the AI really doesn't use a navy very well it's kinda worthless too. What do you all think?

BigD

	18-03-2003 16:26									#2
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I usually build these things when a city has nothing else to do. Like you I find that I have cleared my main continent and there is no threat to defend against by the time I can build them.

The annoying thing is that the cities where SAM sites and especially civil defence are needed are the cities you have just conquered and where they have to be rushed, along with so many other improvements.

Civil defence is worthwhile is you have a fairly stable land border on a pangaea map but something of a luxury otherwise. I have been considering giving these improvements a happiness bonus to make them worthwhile in core cities but not tried it yet.

The AI does build them so they have a role in making it harder for the human player to conquer an AI civ but that is the only real use I see for them. The civil defence would be good if it helped reduce losses to nuclear attack.

	18-03-2003 16:37									#3
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I build coastal fortresses in key cities but it's rather low on my list of priorities. If the AI has a navy of some size it will spend a lot of time bombarding my coastal cities and tiles. Coastal fortresses will at least give some defence to the cities while I build or move my own fleet. As the coastal fortress is the first to be destroyed during bombard you may have to rebuild it several times. As long as it stands though it will protect other buildings in the city. I have never built the other improvements.

	18-03-2003 20:20									#4
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BigD:

Aside from bongo's mentioning that the coastal fortress is the first improvement to go when bombarding a city, there is no use to build coastal fortresses as the AI ships avoid the bombardment a coastal fortress would give you. Better to have artillery or bombers running around on your railroads to bombard his navy if it begins to attack your improvements on the cities.

The AI never bombs a city, only terrain improvements as far as I've seen, so the SAM site is useless except for the build 5 for the SDI (using the old Civ II name). The SDI isn't usefull unless you think nuclear war is evident and most people win their game before they get a chance to build the SDI. I don't have PTW so I don't know much about civil defense.

	18-03-2003 20:43									#5
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I never build Coastal Fortresses or SAM batteries (though I suppose if I actually got to Int. Defense I would build the 5). I have built a couple of Civil Defense improvements, but I'm unsure that was necessary (or even particularly helpful).

Like badams said, the best defense against coastal bombardment is artillery + rails. Then have a couple of ships to finish off the 1-hp AI ships, and you're all set. Hell, even if you don't have ANY ships, the AI ships will run away to heal if you damage them.

-Arrian

	18-03-2003 20:45									#6
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Yes, in all my games, I've never had the AI air-attack a city with a SAM site. Perhaps it would be a more useful if its range extended in a ring around the city, but alas...

	18-03-2003 20:55									#7
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I did once lose a stealth bomber to a SAM site so I assume they are really in the game for the AI to defend itself. I don't recall the AI ever sending bombers against one of my cities, only bombarding tile improvements and attacking ships.

	18-03-2003 22:18									#8
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Useless improvements? Yeah: all of them!

NIC rules!


Dominae

	18-03-2003 22:19									#9
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Coastal Forts are a waste. Civil Def, not needed either.
SAM sites, only if you are playing conquest on a large or huge map. In that case the AI will get to nukes and you may need to have SDI. Fighters are the only things that are useful to stop AI bombing runs, as it avoids cities with SAM. That makes sam site a prophylactic only and then for cities in range.

	18-03-2003 22:40									#10
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Can u do precision strikes on SAM/Civil Defense?

	18-03-2003 23:42									#11
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If your in anarchy Nuclear plants are not that great

	19-03-2003 06:01									#12
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Coastal Forts are a waste. Civil Def, not needed either. SAM sites, only if you are playing conquest on a large or huge map. In that case the AI will get to nukes and you may need to have SDI. Fighters are the only things that are useful to stop AI bombing runs, as it avoids cities with SAM. That makes sam site a prophylactic only and then for cities in range.

what if all your cities have SAMs? will the AI bombers leave your cities alone then?

	19-03-2003 07:52									#13
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yes, but they will bomb every single terrain improvement around it, making the city nearly useless...

--Kon--

	19-03-2003 08:53									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Useless improvements? Yeah: all of them! NIC rules!

Believe us, it's true! Not a fun way to play civ 3, but...

And just to clarify, whether you build SAM sites or not, the AI will NOT bomb your cities, only the tiles around them.

	19-03-2003 10:56									#15
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The only real value of SAM sites it to help with ICBM and Nukes. Get SAM's in cities that are in range and get the SDI up. To stop bombers get fighters in cities in the flight path of the incoming bombers. Better yet get an army over to smash the city that houses the bombers.
I do not use bombers in any big way, just a handful normally, so I do not use precision.
To me bomber and arties are so iffy that I do not rely on them. Yes I use some, but they are not a main means for me.

	19-03-2003 14:22									#16
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The best defence is (as always) a good attack.

The only time I really had a use for a coastal fortress was because the AI had a large navy which it used to bombard one of my captured cities(the city had an excellent strategic position, think gibraltar) so I had to constantly rebuild the coastal fortress and other important improvements. The attacks didn't stop until my own fleet showed up and destroyed the AI ships and escorted an invasion force to the port where the AI healed his wounded ships.

Lesson learned: Coastal fortresses can be useful but only in rare cases.

They are cheap insurance though. They are cheap to build and cost nothing to maintain. Stops you from getting a heartattack when an ironclad destroys a cathedral or some other expensive improvement

	19-03-2003 22:15									#17
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Coastal Fortresses are often the first to be destroyed when being bombarded by naval forces. Makes sense, actually (especially would if they were a real threat to the naval units ).

SAM sites: It has been awhile, but if you are on the receiving end of an AI's bomber fleet, they eventually WILL start bombing your cities. Key word: "eventually".

	20-03-2003 03:10									#18
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SAM sites are pretty useless but I build them anyway in the cities most likely to get bombed. Helps to get SDI too...

Civil defense is a waste, so are coastal batteries, I have never seen them do anything useful.

Best defense against air attack is a good fighter defense. Even better is to just kick their butt before they start bombing you, the AI has a nasty habit of bombing resource squares but you can do the same.

I also have a mod in which fighters are given defense strenghts of 6, this allows for offensive fighter sweeps into enemy territory.

	20-03-2003 05:17									#19
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My experience is the same as Jaybe's with respect to AI bombers -- they will bomb cities occasionally, but have a much greater lust for tile improvements. One of these days I'm going to set up a scenario where the AI will be "forced" to bomb a city with a SAM, just so I can see/hear the animation of a SAM actually shooting something down (although I think SAMs were "broken" early on, and now they seem to cause traget shifting (i.e., AI avoids them), I have seen several posts by folks saying they've gotten the little pop-up saying "Our SAM shoot down an enemy bomber!").

I find civil defense worthwhile if I share a land border and am playing in a "defensive" or peaceful posture towards a UN, Cultural or Spaceship win -- an exrta 50% defensive bonus for those few cities on the border is worth the few shekels' upkeep per turn, IMHO.

Catt

	20-03-2003 20:12									#20
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I cannot recall the AI EVER bombing one of my cities. Only terrain.

-Arrian

	20-03-2003 22:37									#21
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Catt, if you want to hear it (I don't recall what is sounded like), send your bombers to a city with it.
I do not recall if the AI ever omb my city with a SAM or even without. I know it mostly hits my tiles or units outside the city. I just never really noticed.

	22-03-2003 15:44									#22
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SAM's are both useless and expensive to upkeep

	28-03-2003 01:56									#23
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I would rather have some fighter jets than can move around and bomb ships than a SAM.