19-03-2003 04:53									#1
	A shrill voice Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So today Republicans went after Tom daschle for his comments: this is not particualrly about daschle, but about an interesting reality about America today.

Over the last 50 years the amount of real sacrifice the average American has to undergo while the nation is at war has gone down, and down dramatically. This phenomenon, of Amercian civilians having to sacrifice was highest during our independence and the Civil war of course, with the two world wars also demanding much sacrifice, mainly economic. In both Korea and Vietnam millions of conscripts saw combat as they were rotated. Since the end of the concript army and the growing dependence of high tech, the number of Americans at war has gone down greatly, and any real home front sacrifice has also come to an end. Our current technological advantage means that the possible US casualties get lower and lower every day. Our tech lead means fewer and fewer American families will have to mour the loss of family.

Yet, while the amount of sacrifice to be had has gone down, the intollerence of dissent at wartime has increased with time. Read what the anti-war press said during the civl war of Lincoln, at the same time hundreads of thousand fought and towns and cities burned. It was vicious, little above libel. Even during world war 2, opposition press could be very harsh about Roosevelt, if not as harsh as before, and during the Vietnam and Korean wars, wars which lasted years and took thousands of American lives, the critism of politicnas like truman and Johnson was common. Today, we are about to embark on a war that shall be nowhere near as long, nor costly in US lives, and yet to say a bad thing about president bush becomes an act of treason...

So, why has America become less open to critisms of our political leaders during war than before? Is this a good thing?

	19-03-2003 05:06									#2
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something changed after september 11

	19-03-2003 05:07									#3
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I don't know what happened before, but I don't think we should exaggerate the lowering of free speech in the US. Sure, conservative people will call "un-American" any person who'll oppose the war. Sure, some patriotic thugs will be verbally or physically violent with noted anti-war people.
But it doesn't mean anti-war people have no right to express themselves. There is much anti-war propganda on the 'net, including in the US and anti-war people represent a significant share of the US population, even though they're not the majority .
The real problem today is the complete lack of organized criticism against war in the media. Only a few newspaper are anti-war, while information networks are outstandingly pro-war, both CNN and Fox (Fox is more pro-war, of course). The Democrats backing the war don't help fighting its twisted cause in the media either.

	19-03-2003 05:33									#4
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what about the anti-war people who are verbally and physically violent with the pro-war people? I was suprised at how much violence I have seen on the news from anti-war people. And this is from CNN- a supposedly liberal news outlet. So it must be true

	19-03-2003 05:44									#5
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Here in France, CNN is considered like a rabid war-advocate, even though we know Fox manages to be worse I have yet to see an anti-war commitment from CNN. Since CNN looks pretty conservative to me, I assume the whole "liberal media" thing is a myth to push the media to the right.

	19-03-2003 05:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Here in France, CNN is considered like a rabid war-advocate, even though we know Fox manages to be worse I have yet to see an anti-war commitment from CNN. Since CNN looks pretty conservative to me, I assume the whole "liberal media" thing is a myth to push the media to the right.

This is a serious question:

How does the populus of France feel, I mean, the United States has been involved in liberating or rescuing France on at least 3 occasion, WW1, WW2 and Vietnam (Southeast Asia). Now France talks smack about United States going to War.

I wonder if maybe next time France gets into scrape, you know, gets their AR$E'$ kicked, if they were whimpering for help, how would they feel if the U S stated, "Get someone else"

I am serious, couldnt be more so.

It is a real kick in the teeth when we have done so much for France and yeah you gave us a monument, but forreal, short memory.

I am proud to be an American and yeah I would help out France or any other country whom is being oppressed with my Red, White and Blue Blood.

I am just appalled by all these countries lining up when we have helped so many time in and time out, with Military Intervention, Economic aid and Favorable Political juggling.

I mean no disrespect to France but merely am curious, I mean plenty of people here bash America and I am sincerely curious how France feels, of course, maybe France doesnt have any mirrors, so looking themselves in the face may not be an option?

Peace

Grandpa Troll

	19-03-2003 05:58									#7
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how can you be serious with a screen name like that.

Please don't bring up the past. it pisses the French off

	19-03-2003 06:00									#8
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WW1: lol

Nice to show up for the last few months of the war

Viet Nam: the French had already lost the colony. It was over. US intervention was unsuccesful anyways


I wonder how the French felt when the US went against them in the Suez crisis after they'd so valiantly saved the US in the Revolutionary war and the War of 1812...

	19-03-2003 06:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident how can you be serious with a screen name like that. Please don't bring up the past. it pisses the French off

Better be pi$$ed off then pi$$ on is what I have been told.

I am very proud to be an American and am curious as to how all these other countries rate themselves.?

Peace

Grandpa TRoll

	19-03-2003 06:02									#10
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Down with Daschle. The creep. He argued when Clinton was in power that war with Saddam was inevitable. Earlier this year he said it was time to keep petty politics out of the Iraqi issue. And yet yesterday he hammer's Bush for trying, but failing, to get a second resoultion from the UN? Most Americans know what happened and do not blame Bush. So, Daschle is being purely political in his unfair attack.

On the issue of the press and the War, Donahue was strongly anti-war. Unfortunately, his show was up against the strongly pro-war O'Reilly. O'Reilly outdrew Donahue by an order of magnitude. Donahue was cancelled.

The networks can count viewers and can draw their own conclusions. After all, they cannot be too far out of step with the American people or else they lose money.

OTOH, I understand the non US news is heavily anti-war. Are these independent news networks, or are they run by the government, by and large?

	19-03-2003 06:03									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger WW1: lol Nice to show up for the last few months of the war Viet Nam: the French had already lost the colony. It was over. US intervention was unsuccesful anyways I wonder how the French felt when the US went against them in the Suez crisis after they'd so valiantly saved the US in the Revolutionary war and the War of 1812...

...and WW2 the U S had nothing to do with Frances being liberated?


Peace

Grandpa Troll

	19-03-2003 06:05									#12
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Did I argue that?

I can't seem to find it.

How do you explain the ingratitude shown the French when you didn't support their unjust war against Egypt after they'd helped you out 1775-1781?

	19-03-2003 06:11									#13
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So 50 years ago the US and UK, and Free French and Polish forcesdrove the Germans out of France. What does that mean today? Nothing.

Get over it..the French did, and so should you.

quote: The networks can count viewers and can draw their own conclusions. After all, they cannot be too far out of step with the American people or else they lose money.

So you think Americans have become less tolerant of war dissent even as the price they have to pay has dropped so dramatically? Why? Why is it that when people felt the impatc of war they were willing to criticize political leaders while today, when we don't you claim they are less willing to do so?

	19-03-2003 06:12									#14
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Don't think we french are unaware of what US did for us during WW2 (at least, not me, and believe me i'm not the only one).

The whole thing is, does it induce for France to follow US's orders until the end of times ? 2 friends can have differents opinions about something, but still be friends.

	19-03-2003 06:12									#15
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quote: OTOH, I understand the non US news is heavily anti-war. Are these independent news networks, or are they run by the government, by and large?

They're all run by the government.

	19-03-2003 06:18									#16
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...and WW2 the U S had nothing to do with Frances being liberated?

Well, the US didn't have a choice in WW2. It was either that or letting USSR "liberate" France.

	19-03-2003 06:39									#17
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Troll :
I belong to the French youth, and I didn't have the opportunity to discuss it with older people, or even people who lived during WW2.

In France, everytime you mention the end of WW2 (to the French, WW2 is strictly separated in 3 categories : the debacle, the occupation and the liberation), the French will prove very thankful to the Americans for what they've did.
In the wake of Sept. 11, I recall some people said "we shouldn't say it's America's fault ; after all, they saved us in 1945". These people remain uncomfortable when the US is criticized, even though the recent climate makes America-bashing something orthodox.

However, there is a big difference between the perception of America by the French and the other way around : while the Americans know France mostly through WW2 and De Gaulle's barkings, along with some touristic prejudices, the French judge America on about everything they've done since WW2. Also, American movies and American way of life are much, much more significant in France than the other way around. Because of this presence, America gets often bashed for whatever reason :
- The peasant struggle against the "malbouffe" (badfood) begun with the destruction of a McDonald's
- The filmmakers' struggle for the "cultural exception" in GATT bargainings was aimed against Hollywood crap
- the US is often mentioned by left-wing papers as an example of horrible welfareless society (but Britain is pretty much mentioned too)
- the rather pro-Palestinian population blames the US of unconditionally supporting Israel (it has abated recently)
etc, etc.

In short, our judgment on the US doesn't only come from WW2.
That's why the French are rather antiamerican these times (believe me, such a wide antiamericanism is very recent). We don't intend to be 100% loyal to the US for the rest of the time because of WW2. Just like you won't support France for the rest of the time because of the war of independance.
From what I've seen here, many Americans basically stop at WW1&2 when they're talking about France, to explain how whimpy or how ungrateful the French are. The French use many more historical and current references when judging the US.

quote: how all these other countries rate themselves.?

In France, I have seen much less flag-waving in my entire life than the flag waving I have seen from American posters in my short time on Apolyton. The last great display of flags I've seen was the victory at the football world cup in 1998, where the Champs Elysées were full of French flags. You susually see French flags only on public buildings here, never in the hands of people.
However, most French people are happy / proud of their country and their culture. Most people believe France is different than other countries, and often consider France better. There is a big French ego, which leads us to criticize about anything foreign countries do poorly. Hence, we harshly criticized chief crook Berlusconi's election for example. We have been much more silent since chief crook Chirac won with 82%
France has several national shames that are widely discussed : collaboration with nazi Germany and torture during the Algeria war are widely discussed and known throughout the French public. There is an official guilt which obviously limits flagwaving.

I am living in Germany this year, and the Germans have ashamed themselves of their country since WW2, even though things are slowly changing. A German friend of mine explained she got insulted when she told a fellow German she was proud of her country.
I have yet to see a German waving his flag, explaining how things are better in his country. Again, football seems to be the only time in which people shout "Germany"

	19-03-2003 06:56									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ned OTOH, I understand the non US news is heavily anti-war. Are these independent news networks, or are they run by the government, by and large?

In France, 2 major TV channels have the most influence on the news and public opinion : the private TF1 and the public France2. There are many public radios, among which one of the major stations, but even more private radios, among which 2 major ones. There is no public newspaper that I know of, except the official publication for new laws (I have never seen it being sold).
TF1 and other private channels work closely with the governments, and their mother company get juicy public deals out of it (public works' Bouygues owns TF1, Vivendi Universal own(ed?) Canal+). 2 private groups have most of the private newspapers and magazines. These business interests are generally in favour of right winged politicans.
Currently, I see more dissent against the government on the public France2 than on TF1, but all the media oppose the war, like nearly all the politicians (only a few center-right and free-marketers politicians voice their agreement with war).


I haven't seen TV much in Germany, however there are many public TVs and radios generously funded by the TVtax. These channels are not marginalized and belong to the most important channels. However, big private channels exist too. I don't know which ones are most influential in building the public opinion.
I don't believe there is any significant state-owned newspaper in Germany, if there is any at all. All major newspapers and newsmagazines are private.