19-03-2003 15:47									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander So why did we bomb your embassy?

I heard some theories but I am not going to speculate on my own.

However, this "outdated map" routine is really lame, because a tourist could buy a better map on the street.

	19-03-2003 15:55									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I heard some theories but I am not going to speculate on my own. However, this "outdated map" routine is really lame, because a tourist could buy a better map on the street.

I assumed that the Chinese were allowing the Serbs to use the Embassy (or were themselves doing so on behalf of the Serbs) for cover from which to carry out military activity. It was probably something relatively important, or we would have ignored it. My guess is something related to anti-aircraft defenses like a radar or something, but the possibilities are numerous. Neither the U.S. or the Chinese were about to admit that they were:

a) Committing an act of war by allowing their territory to be used for military purposes by a combatant (Chinese)

b) Committing an act of war by purposefully attacking the territory in question that belonged to a sovereign state with which we were currently not at war (U.S.)

Nothing that I have seen or heard since then has changed my feeling on this one, though I do give the "Never underestimate the stupidity of the American people" argument (ie it really was an accident) a 20% chance of actually being what happened.

	19-03-2003 16:47									#33
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I think the missile was just misdirected.

If you have to choose between a conspiracy and a stuff up, choose the stuff up every time.

	19-03-2003 16:53									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think the missile was just misdirected. If you have to choose between a conspiracy and a stuff up, choose the stuff up every time.

That is very wise advice. The thing that made me wonder about the whole incident was the reaction of the Chinese government. They seem to have been reacting as id it were a deliberate attack rather than an accident, which begged the question: Why would they assume that it was deliberate? And so on.

	19-03-2003 17:09									#35
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From memory there was a Yugo military facility next door to the Chinese embassy. The Chinese took it pretty calmly.

The Chinese man in the street freaked out.

	19-03-2003 19:39									#36
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I despise French Jingo-ism.

	19-03-2003 19:57									#37
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It is about as despicable as the others. Except that it's less obvious than the Yank / Chinese or Russian one : very rarely a Frenchman will explain a foreigner how superior his country his.

	19-03-2003 20:00									#38
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Less obvious?!? Are you serious?

	19-03-2003 20:06									#39
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Yes. I live abroad with many French people, and I have yet to see someone saying how France is superior in everything. I am not saying French jingoism doesn't exist, but it is much more subtle than the American / Russian flagwaving I've seen on this board : French people tend to really believe they are different, and this different make them better. Also, American culture is looked down.
However, you don't see anybody saying FRANCE FRANCE FRANCE like the USAUSAUSAUSAUSA wavers I could have seen here. Nearly nobody explicitely pretends France is the best country in the world, nor it is "the shining beacon of freedom in the world". The "Pays des Droits de l'Homme" phrase (country of Rights of Man) isn't used in any official occurence, and the State promotes guilt over French past crimes.
Very different from the jingoisms I've seen here, and much more subtle.

	19-03-2003 20:12									#40
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The French will argue all day with the British that they are superior, at evreything. They will accept are cows are madder though.

	19-03-2003 20:19									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I think the missile was just misdirected. If you have to choose between a conspiracy and a stuff up, choose the stuff up every time.

Horsie, there were at least three missiles. Not one.


Silkander, found this article wrt to the missile attack

	19-03-2003 20:22									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor I am not saying French jingoism doesn't exist, but it is much more subtle than the American / Russian flagwaving I've seen on this board

So that explains the language laws. It's just the French being subtle.

	19-03-2003 20:25									#43
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Stinger : you are a Rosbif, our ancient enemy ! That's a special case

	19-03-2003 20:29									#44
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Dino :
The language laws aren't jingoism. They defend a language that is deemed to be ours. Language has a big role in the French culture, that we try to keep and to boost in the future. Naturally, some believe the French culture / language is superior to others, but the law is mostly motivated by the fact the French language / culture is ours (not necessarily better,simply ours) and shouldn't be allowed to go down the toilet.

French cultural conservatism should not be confused with jingoism / flag waving.

	19-03-2003 20:42									#45
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Did the jingo eat your baby?

	19-03-2003 21:37									#46
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When patriotism comes at no real cost to the vast majority of people, then jingosim will flourish.

	19-03-2003 21:43									#47
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Jingo Jingo Jingo... I made it out of clay... Jingo Jingo Jingo... with Jingo I will play!

	19-03-2003 22:11									#48
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Well, it's nice to know the Aussies are our brothers in Jingoism as well!

	19-03-2003 23:41									#49
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Americans will argue that they are better. The French will argue that you are worse.

	19-03-2003 23:52									#50
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For some strange reason, I feel like playing Jenga now ...

	20-03-2003 00:25									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Americans will argue that they are better. The French will argue that you are worse.

Spot on

	20-03-2003 01:44									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Dino : The language laws aren't jingoism. They defend a language that is deemed to be ours. Language has a big role in the French culture, that we try to keep and to boost in the future. Naturally, some believe the French culture / language is superior to others, but the law is mostly motivated by the fact the French language / culture is ours (not necessarily better,simply ours) and shouldn't be allowed to go down the toilet.

If it is superior, why does it need the crutches of law?
The danger to french is francophones stop using it,
hardly superior.

Do the Germans, Swedes Poles, Italians, have this cultural worry?

	20-03-2003 01:53									#53
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quote: Jingo Jingo Jingo... I made it out of clay... Jingo Jingo Jingo... with Jingo I will play!

Second Verse, Same as the First!

	20-03-2003 01:59									#54
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J-I-N-G-O, J-I-N-G-O, J-I-N-G-O, and jingo was it's name-o!

Don't mind me. Just felt like singing a little song there.

	20-03-2003 02:49									#55
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quote: The "Pays des Droits de l'Homme" phrase (country of Rights of Man) isn't used in any official occurence, and the State promotes guilt over French past crimes.

Is that why Vichy France plays a prominent role in French history books?