19-03-2003 11:24									#1
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Every day I go onto apolyton, mostly to lurk on the Civ 2 boards and look longingly at the Civ 3 ones. I occasionally happen upon the Off Topic boards as well; and I look at the topics and what do I see?
"Israeli Military murders American"
And it strikes me as to how accepting people are of the media; do they bother attempting to get an Israeli point of view? No. They merely read an article from the BBC or Guardian and believe it to be the Gospel truth or whatever that saying is. I know that some times the Israeli soldiers do bad things, but the difference is they get PROSECUTED for it and they were NOT ORDERED TO DO SO. No commander said "Drive into her". The soldier did it himself. So has the IDF done this, or one soldier? (I'm not going to presume anything about whether he did it on purpose, I don't know about that). Check the facts better, mmk?

	19-03-2003 12:09									#2
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yep, I agree completely.

not sure if this thread will survive though

	19-03-2003 14:33									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico I know that some times the Israeli soldiers do bad things, but the difference is they get PROSECUTED for it and they were NOT ORDERED TO DO SO. No commander said "Drive into her". The soldier did it himself. So has the IDF done this, or one soldier? (I'm not going to presume anything about whether he did it on purpose, I don't know about that). Check the facts better, mmk?

The killing of Rachel Corrie is just the tip of an iceberg. It is not an isolated incident. Perhaps she's the first Usian that got murdered, but definitely not the first person. Lots of Palestanians got blown away. I think the numbers paint a clear picture.

	19-03-2003 14:40									#4
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Did you ever think they were provoked? Israelis are baited just like American police are.

Note: That is no excuse for murder! I do expect all of them to be prosecuted and charged with murder and/or manslaughter. But you can't go around provoking people who have guns and/or bulldozers. You are likely to piss them off, and they will kill you!

	19-03-2003 14:42									#5
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Right or wring, this is why most people don't jump in front of bulldozers.

	19-03-2003 14:49									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger The killing of Rachel Corrie is just the tip of an iceberg. It is not an isolated incident. Perhaps she's the first Usian that got murdered, but definitely not the first person.

Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time. It's too bad she was so stupid / committed to her cause, but she was an adult and made her choice.

	19-03-2003 14:58									#7
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Dissident,

Provoked in what sense? First of all, they are on Occupied Territory. The IDF shouldn't be there. The Israeli settlers shouldn't be there. Secondly, I can just easily say that the Pals are merely retaliating Israeli provocations. It's a long chain, you can't point to an incident and say, "these other guys caused it."


Sikander,

"Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time."

Interesting bias in your position. Pals murdered Usians, but not necessarily the Israelis. Why are you so sure that the Pals murdered the Usians, instead of being them in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just using a defense for Israel a lot of people pulled.

	19-03-2003 15:02									#8
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When Usians get blown to bits in a bus bombing, it's a pretty damn clear case of murder.

	19-03-2003 15:09									#9
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Ah, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then.

	19-03-2003 15:10									#10
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What on earth are Usians?

	19-03-2003 15:13									#11
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Citizens of the United States.

	19-03-2003 15:19									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Sikander, "Actually the Palestinians have murdered a number of Americans during the recent intifada. Rachel is the first American that I know of that has been killed intentionally or unintentionally by the Israelis during this time." Interesting bias in your position. Pals murdered Usians, but not necessarily the Israelis. Why are you so sure that the Pals murdered the Usians, instead of being them in the wrong place at the wrong time? Just using a defense for Israel a lot of people pulled.

Setting off a bomb on a crowded bus is prima facia evidence of murder, what other outcome could there be? Whether or not you know the nationality of the people involved doesn't matter, it is murder.

There is very little convincing evidence that I have seen that the girl killed in the bulldozer incident was murdered by anyone. We shall see how it plays out, but in any event I doubt that she was targeted by the bulldozer driver on account of her nationality, just as the Americans murdered by the Palestinians were most likely killed on the basis of their religion or the perception by the bomber that they were Israelis.

	19-03-2003 16:46									#13
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The number of personal insults at apolyton is growing. I created the cultural thread to stop this. Please try to understand before cussing.

	19-03-2003 17:43									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Ah, they are in the wrong place at the wrong time, then.

I'd call being in front of a moving bulldozer being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

So you're saying, "It's not the Palestinian's fault they killed Americans, they were only trying to kill Israelis."

	19-03-2003 17:48									#15
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EDIT: This is a response to UR's statement (off topic).

UR, while I know that many palestinians were killed, I would like to point out that some of these palestinians were terrorists. In fact, I'd wager that a substantial amount were. However, the palestinians who were not involved in fighting were killed accidentally for the most part (that is, it was not the intention, and never was, of the IDF to kill Palestinian civilians); and in cases where the killings were not unintentional, the soldiers responsible would be prosecuted.

quote: Provoked in what sense? First of all, they are on Occupied Territory. The IDF shouldn't be there. The Israeli settlers shouldn't be there. Secondly, I can just easily say that the Pals are merely retaliating Israeli provocations. It's a long chain, you can't point to an incident and say, "these other guys caused it."

I'm confused-whose territory are they occupying? Palestinians don't have a state yet, so it can't be them, and afaik Egypt and Jordan aren't claiming ownership of territories. And yes, you can point to an incident and say "This palestinian suicide bomber did it." You could go so far as to say "Yasser Arafat allowed it/ condones it." Because they do.

	19-03-2003 17:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico [I]t strikes me as to how accepting people are of the media; do they bother attempting to get an Israeli point of view? No.

If one wanta a Israeli point of view, Apolyton OT is one of the fastest and easiest way to get it. No matter if you like it or not.


Btw, there is no such thing as a Gospel truth as the Gospel is a fairytale. Do you believe everything the Bible says?

	19-03-2003 18:30									#17
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The whole concept behind this thread is too simplistic.

After all, would a radical left-wing rag bother to put something in writing if it weren't true?

	19-03-2003 18:41									#18
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I generally trust the news I read when I see it reported ( in the same form ) from several news outlets, especially when I know that each has their own political slant yet the story remains the same.

BBC is pretty good for trustworthy news though, no big multi-billionare inflicting their views on the editor and so forth down the chain.

	19-03-2003 18:58									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico I would like to point out that some of these palestinians were terrorists. In fact, I'd wager that a substantial amount were.

Thirty thousand Palestinians have been killed by Israel since 1948. How many of them were terrorists?

BTW, in the other thread on Rachael's killing, the source is Ha'aretz, which is an Israeli source.

	19-03-2003 20:11									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I'd call being in front of a moving bulldozer being in the wrong place at the wrong time. So you're saying, "It's not the Palestinian's fault they killed Americans, they were only trying to kill Israelis."

By your logic, so is being in the presence of a bomb. In fact, buses, restaurants, and other crowded places are favourite targets of suicide bombers.

Maybe they didn't expect a bomb there, but then again, Rachel Corrie didn't expect the bulldozer to run over her.

	19-03-2003 20:14									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico I'm confused-whose territory are they occupying? Palestinians don't have a state yet, so it can't be them, and afaik Egypt and Jordan aren't claiming ownership of territories.

You asked other people to check facts, so should you. West Bank and Gaza Strip are called Occupied Territory because those places do not belong to Israel, they belong to a Palestinian state.

	19-03-2003 20:18									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Maybe they didn't expect a bomb there, but then again, Rachel Corrie didn't expect the bulldozer to run over her.

Then she was very, very stupid. Anyone with sense in their head and an understanding of motor vehicles will realize that if you are in front of a moving bulldozer moving in your direction, you can get hit.

	19-03-2003 20:28									#23
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When it's moving at like 5kph, and she was wearing red with a megaphone in her hand? You have to be blind and deaf and stupid not to notice.

	19-03-2003 20:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger When it's moving at like 5kph, and she was wearing red with a megaphone in her hand? You have to be blind and deaf and stupid not to notice.

Assuming she could be seen, was holding a megaphone and wasn't lying on the ground... (And I thought it was 15kph)

Either way, standing in front of a bulldozer is a stupid thing to do.