19-03-2003 13:43									#1
	Raw log of CDG chat 0318 Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Session Start: Tue Mar 18 19:02:21 2003
Session Ident: #isdg
[19:02] * Now talking in #isdg
[19:02] * Trip has joined #isdg
[19:02] {notyoueither> hello
[19:02] {bigfree1> hi nye
[19:02] {Kentonio> lo nye
[19:03] {notyoueither> don't mind me. i watch mostly.
[19:03] {Kentonio> right, the reason I didnt tell you about GC is simply because you had done nothing to that point to make us feel like you were our allies. Every reasonable trade deal had been refused and we had found no common ground over your warrior moving in the south. Why exactly under these circumstances should we tell you about sighting another civ? that sounds like a free gift to me
[19:04] {Togas> Kentonio, this is a long game. A very long game.
[19:04] {Kentonio> i very much hope so
[19:04] {Togas> And I can understand your people wanting to keep an advantage to yourself, but you're going about this the wrong way.
[19:04] {Togas> lieing to us really ... really makes things worse.
[19:05] {Togas> in the beginning, we both already don't trust each other. This made things worse between us.
[19:05] {Kentonio> IWe have never lied to you. We have skkirted the truth but not lied. Calling a team on your doorstep a liar is not if i may make so bold the smartest step you could make
[19:05] {bigfree1> It would have been better if you guys said that that information is confidential; rather than flat out saying you don't see anyone.
[19:06] * WhiteBandit has joined #ISDG
[19:06] {Kentonio> when did we flat out deny it?!!?
[19:06] {bigfree1> by sayign"we see only desert and ocean to our South"
[19:07] {Kentonio> we were speaking about terrain, that was trickery but not downright lying
[19:07] {Togas> it's silly to get into symantics. Apolyton has been truthful and honest with you. CDG has only been shifty and deceptive, and threating to attack us if we moved south ... that's wrong.
[19:07] {Kentonio> LMAO!
[19:07] * E_T sets mode: +o notyoueither
[19:07] * E_T sets mode: +o Trip
[19:07] {Kentonio> Apolyton has been open and honest with us?
[19:07] * E_T sets mode: +o WhiteBandit
[19:07] {Togas> Yes.
[19:08] {Kentonio> yeah, ok then. You guys are paragons of virtue, now kindly answer my queestion..
[19:08] {bigfree1> ok, maybe it is semantics to you, but our teams looks as it as if you were purposesly decieving us to hide the cont. We know contact is valuable, as you do also.
[19:08] {Togas> We're not paragons, nor do we claim to be.
[19:09] {Kentonio> Why exactly is gaining advantages early is short sighted as you made out before, have you repeatedly refused any fair tech trading offer and consistantly offered us pathetic deals that favour you massively?
[19:09] {Togas> we're out to get a good deal, as are you. We believe that cooperation in the beginning is in our best interest. This is, sadly, not going well for either of us.
[19:10] {Togas> kentonio, at some point you're going to have to at least try to be honest with us. Please?
[19:10] {bigfree1> We were about to send you a very fair trade deal when we saw the GCA border; that made us wnat to ask you first about that before contiueing.
[19:10] {Kentonio> WHAT!
[19:11] {Kentonio> Togas, if you call me a liar one more time then our nations diplomatic situation is about to get a whole lot worse
[19:11] {notyoueither> may i ask a question?
[19:11] {Kentonio> ofc
[19:11] {bigfree1> sure nye
[19:11] {Togas> I'm sorry that your pride it hurt, but I have a very difficult time believing you given your track record.
[19:12] * Kentonio has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[19:12] {bigfree1> ok that went well
[19:12] {bigfree1> *shrugs*
[19:12] {Togas> I'm not sure what we planned to acomplish.
[19:12] {WhiteBandit> well.
[19:12] * Kentonio has joined #ISDG
[19:12] {bigfree1> I got them to admit that they knew they were there before the last turn.
[19:12] {notyoueither> hello
[19:13] {E_T> that's good
[19:13] * Micaelis_Rex has joined #ISDG
[19:13] {Micaelis_Rex> I've made it!
[19:13] {notyoueither> hi MRex
[19:13] {bigfree1> good to have you back
[19:13] {Togas> I think it best that NotYouEither speak at this point.
[19:13] * E_T sets mode: +o Kentonio
[19:13] * E_T sets mode: +o Micaelis_Rex
[19:13] {notyoueither> OK
[19:13] * Trip sets mode: -k talks
[19:13] * Trip sets mode: +k wordpass
[19:14] {notyoueither> Kentonio, I take it things are tense.
[19:14] * Kentonio has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
[19:14] {Trip> he's having connection problems
[19:14] {notyoueither> oops
[19:14] {Micaelis_Rex> for those who haven't met me, I'm Micaelis Rex, the defense minister of Elucida
[19:14] {notyoueither> ok
[19:14] {notyoueither> apologies MRex, I should have introduced you.
[19:14] {Trip> Rex, tell him the new password to enter is "wordpass"
[19:14] {bigfree1> Hi Rex thanks for being able to get us those logs
[19:14] {Trip> /join #ISDG wordpass
[19:15] {Trip> instead of /join #ISDG talks
[19:15] {Micaelis_Rex> np
[19:16] {Trip> Kento is coming back in just a second
[19:16] * Kentonio has joined #ISDG
[19:16] {notyoueither> ok
[19:16] {Kentonio> ahah
[19:16] {Kentonio> damn mirc
[19:16] {bigfree1> hehe
[19:16] {bigfree1> i used to say that
[19:16] {Kentonio>
[19:16] {Micaelis_Rex> yeah, i had to DL it too get in Java wasn't working
[19:16] {notyoueither> Kentonio, could you tell me cdg's biggest concerns right now?
[19:16] * Trip sets mode: +o Kentonio
[19:16] {Kentonio> now where were we, i believe you were patronising me Togas
[19:16] {bigfree1> yeah, jave don't wok for me either
[19:17] {Kentonio> yes nye, i will
[19:18] {Kentonio> Right now our concern is that Poly will not accept any deal that is not stacked very much in its favour, we consider you a danger to us considering diplomatic efforts so far and are not willing to stand by and watch a Poly-Gamecatcher alliance against us
[19:18] {bigfree1> You admit that having contact with GCA is an advantage you'd rather keep, correct?
[19:18] {notyoueither> anything else?
[19:18] {notyoueither> pleae, one of us at a time.
[19:18] {Kentonio> nope dont think so Nye
[19:19] {Kentonio> we wanted alliance with poly from the start
[19:19] {notyoueither> ok. i can understand worries about alliances. there are some here too.
[19:19] * Elucidus has joined #ISDG
[19:19] * Trip sets mode: +o Elucidus
[19:19] {Micaelis_Rex> hey luc, welcom
[19:19] {Kentonio> hi luc
[19:19] {notyoueither> may i ask why cdg thinks bw for alphabet is an even and fair trade?
[19:19] {Elucidus> 14thank god for trillian
[19:20] {Elucidus> 14or I never would have got in here
[19:20] {Kentonio> it was the only trade that is possible between us, several times i offered to pay the difference between their worths
[19:20] {notyoueither> hi Elucidus.
[19:20] {Elucidus> 14hey
[19:20] {notyoueither> what do you see as being the difference between their worths?
[19:21] {Kentonio> i have no idea of the cuff to be quite honest, thats something we would have to discuss
[19:21] {Kentonio> it is an acceptance from us tho that your tech is worth more and we are willing to deal with that
[19:22] {notyoueither> ok. well. that puts us in a conundrum.
[19:22] {Kentonio> why so?
[19:23] {notyoueither> it is difficult for me to say, without coming accross as insulting.
[19:23] {notyoueither> i will try though.
[19:23] {Kentonio> hmm
[19:24] {notyoueither> is it possible that teams may attempt bluffs in this game?
[19:24] {Kentonio> i would imagine so
[19:24] {Kentonio> i would fully expect it in fact
[19:24] {notyoueither> kind of like poker.
[19:24] {Kentonio> or global politics yes
[19:24] {Kentonio>
[19:25] {notyoueither> what if a team bluffs us into trading a tech based on them working on it, but they are actually working on another?
[19:25] {Kentonio> ion other words you think we are bluffing and dont want to risk making a deal that is weighed against you
[19:26] {notyoueither> there is that concern. none of us know for sure. that's the problem.
[19:26] {notyoueither> time could solve that.
[19:26] {notyoueither> hense we were willing to back off the trade, and see how things panned out.
[19:26] {notyoueither> see the cards, so to speak.
[19:27] {Kentonio> in which case i would have every sympathy. Its something we are all going to face pretty much every time we make a deal in this game. End of the day only you can decide whether you want to take the risk. bear in mind for all we know you could be bluffing
[19:27] {notyoueither> true.
[19:27] {notyoueither> but in 8 or 14 turns, we will both know for sure, if no trades take place.
[19:27] {Kentonio> very true
[19:28] {notyoueither> then we would both know more about each other, and both teams could be a bit more comfortable.
[19:28] {Kentonio> we dont have any problem with stepping back and waiting in this way. We were howver bombarded with very poor alternative deals
[19:29] {notyoueither> i understand. there was some fumbling in our camp. you have my apology for that.
[19:29] {Kentonio> np
[19:30] {notyoueither> i guess you other concern is a gca-poly alliance.
[19:30] {Kentonio> yes, while later on we would be very happy to welcome a CDG-Poly AND GC alliance, right now it hardly looks rosy for us if you two meet
[19:31] {notyoueither> maybe not.
[19:31] {notyoueither> i take it that since you did Pottery first, you are working on a granery.
[19:31] {Kentonio> no
[19:31] {Kentonio> you?
[19:31] {notyoueither> oh
[19:32] {notyoueither> well, graneries would naturally follow Pottery in many cases. Barracks are a large diversion from early growth.
[19:32] {Kentonio> barracks? yes i suppose they would be
[19:33] {Kentonio> are you building a granery?
[19:33] {notyoueither> we assume you are on a project, because you are at size 3 for some time.
[19:33] {Kentonio> Quid pro quo Nye
[19:34] {notyoueither> a moment
[19:34] {Kentonio> np
[19:36] {notyoueither> Kentonio, i don't feel i have the ability to reveal our build que at this time. i understand if you feel likewise.
[19:37] {Kentonio> thats fine, i take it the answer to my question was yes then as otherwise you would have no worry about answering as i did
[19:37] {Kentonio>
[19:37] {Kentonio> but anyway..
[19:38] {Kentonio> so we can agree that pretty much anything we agree on is a gamble for us both and requires somewhat a leap of faith?
[19:38] {notyoueither> well, it is difficult to say. am i wanting to avoid being truthful, or avoid being deceptive?
[19:38] {Kentonio> who knows
[19:39] {notyoueither> yes, and it must be a good time for each of us to take the leap.
[19:39] {Kentonio> i'd say so
[19:40] {notyoueither> re the trade issue. do you agree we may legitimately want to wait and see how things go over the next several turns?
[19:40] {Kentonio> certainly
[19:41] {notyoueither> so then the other issue is the path of explorers.
[19:41] {Kentonio> yes, and the most important issue of all right now
[19:41] {notyoueither> ok. i believe you.
[19:41] {notyoueither>
[19:41] {Kentonio>
[19:42] {notyoueither> do you wish to prevent our contacting other teams?
[19:42] {Kentonio> not as a general strategy for for the moment we do wish to prevent you contacting the other surrounding team. The word noose comes to mind
[19:43] {notyoueither> i can see your pov. can you see ours?
[19:43] {Kentonio> that you feel you need to have contacts in order to flourish and survive? ofc
[19:44] {notyoueither> yes. so, another conundrum.
[19:44] {Kentonio> yes
[19:44] {Kentonio> one moment plz
[19:44] {notyoueither> how do we solve it?
[19:44] {notyoueither> ok
[19:48] {Kentonio> basically nyw its going to involve a short period of time. In the immediate term it is going to involve that warrior heading back north until our teams can develop a better relationship, which as tonight has proved, doesnt have to be so difficult
[19:49] {notyoueither> on moment, please
[19:49] {Kentonio> np
[19:51] {E_T> while we wait, can I ask you all some personal questions?
[19:51] {E_T> like where do you live?
[19:52] {Kentonio> feel free
[19:52] {Kentonio> england
[19:52] {Trip> ahhh, no wonder you were so busy with Rex about the US Revolutionary War
[19:52] {E_T> I live in Central Florida, what part of England?
[19:53] {Kentonio> Lincoln currently though I tend to enjot moving cities and even countries occasionally
[19:53] {E_T> what do you do in RL?
[19:54] {Kentonio> Im back at university at the moment as a mature student. And you?
[19:54] {E_T> I currently am working for a company that makes airport selfserve touchport devices
[19:54] {Kentonio> oh cool
[19:55] {Kentonio> enjoy it?
[19:55] {E_T> there is a big market for them after 9/11, especially with the airlines losing money
[19:55] {Kentonio> i can imagine
[19:55] {Kentonio> a lot of the companies got hit badly didnt they

Last edited by notyoueither on 19-03-2003 at 13:56

	19-03-2003 13:45									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

[19:55] {E_T> it's o.k. I just started and I hope to get to travel with this job
[19:56] {Kentonio> you been to europe before?
[19:56] {E_T> yes, they did. If this saves them money over the long term, then that will be good for the traveler
[19:56] {Kentonio> true
[19:56] {E_T> No, I would like to go.
[19:57] {Kentonio> yeah its nice. and then theres also france
[19:57] {E_T> I always dreamed of backbacking through parts of Europe
[19:57] {notyoueither> back
[19:57] {Elucidus> 14I was in Spain for two years, I was happy to come back to the US, though
[19:57] {Kentonio> good place for it, lots of cheapish places to stay
[19:57] {Kentonio> re nye
[19:58] {Elucidus> 14oh sure I jump in the where you from and he comes back :doh:
[19:58] {Kentonio> lmao
[19:58] {Trip> hehe
[19:58] {Trip> nice
[19:58] {Kentonio> good timing as always luc
[19:58] {Micaelis_Rex> before we start, i'm back too :P
[19:58] {Elucidus> 14yeah that is me, just hope I drop those bombs int he right place
[19:58] {Kentonio> lmao
[19:58] {notyoueither> Kentonio, can I ask if CDG thinks it is worth a war to prevent the chance of a war?
[19:58] {E_T> I heard something that there are a lot of fast food restaurants who are changing teh name of a menu item, from "French Fries" to just plain "Fries"
[19:59] {Kentonio> Yes we do Nye, i'd consider that simply basic self preservation
[19:59] {Elucidus> 14E_T: I hadn't heard that
[19:59] {notyoueither> we are baffled, i must admit.
[19:59] {E_T> I didn't see that in the news, just a rumor
[19:59] {WhiteBandit> E_T - the cafetaria in the house of representatives changed french fries and french toast to "freedom fries and freedom toast"
[20:00] {Kentonio> @WB yeah that was funny
[20:00] {WhiteBandit> hehe. alright, sorry to highjack this chat, let's continue
[20:00] {E_T> ah, anyways, they are back and i'm back to recording.....
[20:00] {Kentonio> I can see the dilemna Nye
[20:00] {Elucidus> 14recording, this doesn't autoarchive?
[20:00] {Elucidus> 14sorry
[20:03] {Kentonio> so we can see the problem each faces we just have to find a solution we can both swallow
[20:03] {notyoueither> a moment, please?
[20:04] {Kentonio> ofc
[20:04] {notyoueither> can you think of a way that our scouting continuing would be acceptable to CDG?
[20:05] {Kentonio> honestly? not at this moment if that scouting was south towards GC.
[20:06] {Kentonio> you will accept that this is more to do with contact with them than with scouting yes?
[20:06] {notyoueither> well, then we do truely have an impasse. i am not at all sure that our team will accept being told that we are denied the very thing we need most.
[20:06] {notyoueither> yes, kentonio.
[20:07] {notyoueither> but we must view atempts to prevent us from contact as hostile.
[20:08] {notyoueither> as we are sure your team would if things were reversed.
[20:08] {Kentonio> Would you not accept the argument though that the thing we BOTH need most is security? We are not seeking to deny you contact with GC long term, we are looking at the short term interests of our nation. As you know very well, we are all of us at our most vulnerable in this early period. How would you feel is the situation was reversed?
[20:08] {notyoueither> we would not interfere with your scout.
[20:09] {Kentonio> You would happily sit back and be encircled by two nations you had had little contact with?
[20:09] {notyoueither> we would not want to guarantee a war to prevent a possible war.
[20:10] {notyoueither> what would you do if you were us?
[20:11] {Kentonio> The problem is my friend, one on one neither of us can win this war right now as I am sure you know. Or at least neither of us can win and not be immediatley conquered by GC. If you join forces with GC however you could wipe us out in record time. If WE joined forces with GC the situation is different as it would involve us allowing their troops through our territory to reach you which is hardly likely.
[20:12] {notyoueither> i agree, but you assume that we see war with neighbours as being in our interests to seek.
[20:12] {Kentonio> Whilst we hardly trust each other a huge amount right now, Im very sure we at least trust GC less
[20:12] {notyoueither> from mp games, i am convinced it is not, with slow moving units.
[20:13] {Kentonio> knocking out your immediate neighbour very quickly is not exactly an unlikely scenario to look for
[20:13] {notyoueither> may i ask, why are you certain we would be hostile once we contact gca?
[20:13] {notyoueither> or that they would be?
[20:13] {Kentonio> especially as we seem to be so hemmed in
[20:13] {Kentonio> its not a question of certainty, its a question of risk
[20:14] {Kentonio> and at this early, early stage its not a risk we can take
[20:14] {notyoueither> so, 100% chance of war to avoid 10% chance of war? i assume that 100% means you start it by attacking.
[20:15] {Kentonio> there are many possible scenarios. I would phrase it more as 100% chance of a war on our terms over an incalculable risk of a war that we could not win
[20:15] {notyoueither> trip would like to address something you just said.
[20:15] {Kentonio> ofc
[20:15] {notyoueither> go ahead, trip.
[20:16] {Trip> Kentonio, there are many things you are concerned about, which is understandable... we all have much at stake here, and none of us want anything bad to happen
[20:17] {Kentonio> nod
[20:17] {Trip> I was the leader of a team during the Apolyton PTW DG, and I was faced with a situation similar to your own right now
[20:17] {Kentonio> yes, a situation which wiped out your team if i recall
[20:17] {Trip> we had just met a nearby team which we tried making agreements with, and ultimately we ended up on bad terms with them in a situation very similar to this one
[20:18] {Trip> we decided to take the path of trusting our own judgement, and avoided a chance of negotiating the situation
[20:18] {Trip> we thought it was in our best interests, and that we could handle the situation
[20:18] {Trip> unfortunately we were wrong
[20:19] {Trip> diplomacy was the answer, and that was a lesson taught to me the hard way
[20:19] {Trip> many things can change between now and the future
[20:19] {Trip> there is risk, certainly
[20:19] {Trip> but we need not make this situation into more than it is
[20:19] {Kentonio> very true
[20:19] {Trip> being so protective of things now can only harm us both later on
[20:19] {Trip> we have no intentions of harming you in any way
[20:20] {Trip> this is why I've been so determined to make sure that things go smoothly between us
[20:20] {Trip> you've seen my efforts
[20:20] {Trip> it was diplomacy which destroyed my team in the PTW DG
[20:20] {Trip> or the shunning of it
[20:20] {Kentonio> however your team could just as easily represent Poly in this equation. I ask you all a question know. Are YOU willing to take the 100% certainty of war in order to gain something you could have freely through democracy in time?
[20:21] {notyoueither> what does time mean, Knetonio?
[20:21] {Trip> Kentonio: we all are trying to do what's in our best interests, here obviously
[20:21] {notyoueither> and again, what would your team do?
[20:21] {Trip> is there a way we can provide assurance of our good intentions to you, while not letting things progress in this manner?
[20:22] {Kentonio> That is something very open to discussion which we are more than willing to be open with you about. As I said we do NOT seek to keep you from contacts, we just want to be in a safe position first
[20:22] {Trip> Kentonio: is there a way you could feel safe, while still allowing us to get contact?
[20:23] {Trip> as I've said, it's our intention to move forward peacefully
[20:23] {Trip> we would not be afraid to show that
[20:23] {Kentonio> at this moment? I dont think so. What could suddenly change right now? If you have any suggestion ive very open to hear it
[20:23] {Trip> in the PTW DG, written and signed documents held VERY much impact upon the game
[20:23] {Trip> wars were started over them
[20:23] {Kentonio> hmm
[20:24] {Trip> we can offer you a non-aggression pact with our sworn honor over the terms
[20:24] {Kentonio> one moment plz
[20:24] {Trip> a team caught breaking an agreement is a target for every other civ
[20:24] {Trip> of course
[20:25] {Trip> I offer you my own personal trust as well, on this issue
[20:31] {Kentonio> a quick clarification plz, how long would this non-aggression pact last?
[20:31] {Trip> to the date of your own choosing
[20:32] {notyoueither> how long would you feel reasonable?
[20:32] {Trip> as I have stated previously, we have no intentions of attacking you
[20:32] {Trip> we do not fear a treaty to prevent our aggression where none exist
[20:33] {Kentonio> we are very happy with the idea of an open non-aggression pact at the UN as we feel that any team breaking such a pact would be counted as untrustworth and would recieve little or no respect even if they went on to win the whole game
[20:33] {Trip> of course
[20:33] {Kentonio> we are just discussing the details, one moment plz
[20:33] {Trip> that is how things were during the PTW DG as well
[20:33] {notyoueither> np Kentonio
[20:34] {Micaelis_Rex> yes, your idea is very interesting
[20:34] {Trip> Rex: we may yet still team up against CFC
[20:34] {Kentonio> I very much hope so Trip
[20:34] {Elucidus> 14lmao
[20:34] {Elucidus> 14oops sorry
[20:35] {Trip>
[20:37] {Kentonio> ok, we agree to this proposal with 2 conditions...
[20:37] {Trip> continue
[20:38] {Kentonio> Firslty the warrior we had heading towards GC to make contact was turned around last turn to counter what we saw as agression by BigFree (the warrior not the ambassador )
[20:38] {Kentonio> our first condition is that your warrior sit for 2 turns while we up the lost time towards GC
[20:39] {Trip> yes, right
[20:39] {Trip> go ahead
[20:40] {Kentonio> Our second condition is that once you make contact with GC you warrior turns round and immediately retracks its steps back into Apolyon territory. No expedition through the south, no wandering through CDG lands.
[20:40] {Kentonio> If you can agree to these conditions we will very, very happily accept your proposal
[20:40] {notyoueither> can we discuss these terms?
[20:40] {Kentonio> We welcome whole heartedly a lasting peace with Apolyton
[20:41] {notyoueither> as do we with cdg
[20:41] {Kentonio> not sure, you can suggest of course
[20:41] {notyoueither> one moment.
[20:43] * MasterZen has joined #ISDG
[20:43] * E_T is now known as E_T_Outside_smoking
[20:44] {notyoueither> Kentonio, is it a problem for CDG if we continue south from GCA?
[20:44] {Kentonio> hmm.. one moment
[20:44] {notyoueither> outside of your territory, of course
[20:47] {Kentonio> would you agree to share screenshots of the land directly to our south near GC? We would reciprocate ofc with our own warrior who is also heading that way. Would be a nice sign of cooperation between us and a good strong sign of friendship
[20:47] {notyoueither> that would break the rules of the game
[20:47] {notyoueither> What if we agree to share with you information of further contacts by Wbigfree?
[20:47] {Kentonio> break the rules? why?
[20:48] {notyoueither> no map trading till possible ingame. do i have that right?
[20:48] {Trip> no trading of maps before Map Making
[20:48] {Trip> that's correct NYE
[20:48] {Micaelis_Rex> yes, i believe you are right there

Last edited by notyoueither on 19-03-2003 at 13:58

	19-03-2003 13:45									#3
	Remove this text

[20:48] {notyoueither> What if we agree to share with you information of further contacts by Wbigfree?
[20:50] {Kentonio> damn, forgot about map making, pity it was a nice idea. Your suggestion about comms is equally nice though. It also requires us to trust each other which is welcome. One we have map-making btw I would like to revisit the question of sharing map information from our scouts, it does lighten the load a tad.
[20:51] {notyoueither> that is compeltely welcome
[20:51] {Trip> Kento: trading maps was a big portion of the PTW DG
[20:51] {Trip> we have no problem with
[20:51] {Trip> it
[20:51] * E_T_Outside_smoking is now known as E_T
[20:52] {Trip> Kentonio: so what do you think of these terms?
[20:52] {Trip> we wait 2 turns, scout beneath GCA, we all share contacts, and trade maps when MM is available
[20:53] {notyoueither> uhh, we revisit trading screen shots later. riught?
[20:53] {Kentonio> We also sign a non-agression pact which we post at the Un expressing our total commitment not to attack the other on the honour of all the signitaries
[20:53] {Kentonio> yes Nye
[20:54] {Kentonio> we not trying to tye to down to any future stuff like that right now
[20:54] {notyoueither> term of non aggression, or indefinite?
[20:54] {Kentonio> cant really be indefinate or we rule out a conquest victory right now which does seem like kind of early days
[20:54] {Trip> LoL
[20:55] {notyoueither> ok. how long?
[20:55] {notyoueither> brb
[20:56] {Trip> yes, do you have a # of turns to suggest?
[20:56] {notyoueither> 30 turns, open to extention?
[20:56] {Kentonio> ok, how about this..
[20:57] * MasterZen is now known as runs
[20:57] * runs is now known as MasterZen
[20:58] {Kentonio> the peace lasts until one (or both) of us reaches the next era. At which time we can revisit and see if it falls within our best interests to continue it. If either chooses not to, the non aggresion pact may peacefully expire over a 5 turn period.
[20:59] {Kentonio> would you welcome such a long term peace?
[20:59] {notyoueither> i would, let me check with my team.
[21:02] {notyoueither> Kentonio, we propose length of 30 turns. To be renewed after 25 turns.
[21:03] {Kentonio> one moment plz
[21:03] {notyoueither> k
[21:03] * E_T sets mode: +o MasterZen
[21:08] {Kentonio> sorry, just one more minite
[21:08] {notyoueither> np
[21:10] {Kentonio> ok, if you desire only 30 turns that is ok with us. Rex has just pointed out we need to add a rpovision to the treaty by which we may not violate each others territory. by the letter of the agreement otherwise we could technically walk a huge army into the sqaure next to your capital on 29 turns otherwise
[21:10] {Trip> LoL
[21:10] {notyoueither> ok. some details remain. you have time?
[21:10] {Kentonio> sure
[21:10] {notyoueither> great.
[21:10] {Micaelis_Rex> see trip, i know what you were thinking
[21:11] {Trip> shhhhh
[21:11] {Elucidus> 14lol
[21:11] {notyoueither> 4
[21:12] {notyoueither> term 1. Non aggression pact to last 30 turns, renewable after 25 turns.
[21:12] {notyoueither> 4 term 1. Non aggression pact to last 30 turns, renewable after 25 turns.
[21:12] {notyoueither> that's better
[21:12] {Kentonio> aye
[21:13] {notyoueither> 4 1b neither party will attack any unit belonging to the other party
[21:13] {notyoueither> 41c neither party will entry the cultural territory of the other party without express permission.
[21:13] {notyoueither> oops
[21:14] {WhiteBandit> merry christmas
[21:14] {Kentonio>
[21:14] {MasterZen> you just blinded me
[21:14] {Kentonio> unit OR city
[21:14] {Micaelis_Rex> lol
[21:14] {notyoueither> 4 1c neither party will enter the cultural territory of the other party without express permission
[21:14] {Kentonio> cool
[21:15] {notyoueither> 4 neither party will build a city within the cultural territory of the other party.
[21:15] {notyoueither> 4 that was 1d
[21:16] {Kentonio> erm.. is that actually possible?
[21:16] {Trip> LoL
[21:16] {MasterZen> discard that
[21:16] {notyoueither> yes. it starts a war.
[21:16] {WhiteBandit> nope
[21:16] {WhiteBandit> oh, n/m
[21:16] {WhiteBandit> hehe
[21:16] {E_T> yes, to Lux's ultimate demise
[21:16] {notyoueither> we could discard it.
[21:16] {Kentonio> no better not then
[21:16] {notyoueither> no, i mean an ingame war.
[21:16] {Trip> er.. just leave it in
[21:16] {Trip> it doesn't matter
[21:16] {Trip> continue
[21:17] {notyoueither> not just causing your neighbour to bounce up and down on your new furniture.
[21:17] {MasterZen> with all the bugs, who knows, it might be possible
[21:17] {notyoueither> 4 2. Wbigfree of Apolyton does not move for 2 turns.
[21:18] {Kentonio> one point btw, can we as a kind of integral issue also sort out some kind of border between us that we cant city build on plz. We talked about this before but with this non-agression pact it just means we wont start aggravating each other by strategically placing cities in inappropriate places
[21:19] {notyoueither> 4 2b after 2 turns, CDG does not impede Wbigfree's southward movement.
[21:19] {notyoueither> good point, Kentonio, do you think we both know enough to draw a border?
[21:20] {notyoueither> i think we should begin constructing one ASAP
[21:20] {Kentonio> well if i understand correctly youve seen the east we've seen the west, as long as we have both seen some landmark im sure we can pick out a line
[21:21] {notyoueither> hmm. it is very early, and much land has not been seen, but perhaps we could begin discussing the land between us that we both know?
[21:22] {notyoueither> aside. how does one draw a border without a map to draw it on...
[21:22] {Kentonio> just choose a spot and agree on the line going there
[21:22] {Trip> without knowing where that line goes?
[21:22] {Kentonio> we are fortunate it seems, there are exactly 10 squares between our city radius
[21:22] {MasterZen> We should first obtain more accurate knowledge of our lands
[21:23] {notyoueither> how far north of elucidias do you envision wanting to go?
[21:23] {Kentonio> we know quite a lot about what lies between us
[21:23] {MasterZen> In RL, the Spain-Portugese plan to split the new world did not go well for one side
[21:23] {Kentonio> if there are 10 squares between us it seems fair and reasonable to draw the line at the 5th square
[21:23] {MasterZen> I suggest we consider this perhaps at a later date
[21:24] {notyoueither> can we revisit that? it is a complex issue on its own.
[21:24] {Kentonio> sorry its important to this agreement
[21:24] {MasterZen> This agreement is about a non-agression pact and scouting issues, not about borders
[21:24] {MasterZen> yet
[21:25] {notyoueither> kentonio. we do not feel we know enough to draw a comprehensive border agreement.
[21:25] {Kentonio> And one issue of that was that we are both locked into a non-agression pact neither of us can break. There is NOTHING to stop a city being strategically placed say right alongside the other countries capital unless a border is agreed on
[21:25] {notyoueither> ahh. ok. i can solve that.
[21:25] {Kentonio> we are just looking at closing the loopholes here
[21:26] {notyoueither> good point
[21:26] {notyoueither> what if we and you agree... hmmm
[21:26] {notyoueither> neither one of us build a city more than 5 tiles south/north (as the case may be. of our capitol centres?
[21:27] {notyoueither> for the duration
[21:27] {Kentonio> yep thats fine, that is in effect the line i was speaking of
[21:28] {Kentonio> im glad we can agree on these issues, we see it as a welcome sign
[21:29] {notyoueither> it should actually be sw and ne, respectively
[21:29] {notyoueither> right?
[21:29] {notyoueither> it is a good sign.
[21:29] {Kentonio> oh yeah! ne, sw. Good catch mate i'd missed that one
[21:29] {notyoueither> k
[21:31] {Micaelis_Rex> congratulations to all parties involved on pulling this out, i must say it is a welcome relief
[21:31] {notyoueither> 4 3 Apolyton agrees not to build a city sw of a line defined as running 5 tiles sw of its capitol.
[21:31] {Kentonio> cool
[21:32] {Micaelis_Rex> those hours of negotiations are killers
[21:32] {Kentonio> are we restricting units behind these lines (with the exception of BigFree) or just cities?
[21:32] {Kentonio> just curious btw
[21:32] {notyoueither> 4 4 CDG agrees not to build a city ne of a line defined as running 5 tiles ne of its capitol.
[21:32] {Elucidus> 14how about....just...
[21:32] {Elucidus> [22:31] {notyoueither> 3 Apolyton agrees not to build a city
[21:32] {Kentonio> lmao
[21:32] {Kentonio> luc...
[21:33] {Elucidus> 14 Sorry couldn't resist
[21:33] {notyoueither> lol
[21:33] * Togas clears his throat.
[21:34] {Togas> Sorry. I need to take a moment to chat with NYE, I think we're confused.
[21:36] {notyoueither> yes
[21:36] {notyoueither> one moment, please
[21:41] {notyoueither> a problem. well, many of them, actually.
[21:41] {Kentonio> oh really
[21:42] {notyoueither> we feel that what we are laying down has the makings of shaping into permanent borders in the future. many are therefore hesitent (or hostile) to the line sbeing drawn.
[21:42] {notyoueither> we do not knopw enough about the map
[21:42] {notyoueither> how can we assure against poaching near the capitols, though?
[21:42] {Kentonio> what?
[21:43] {notyoueither> well, we started out down this road on the question of what prevents a city being plunked down next to the capitol.
[21:43] * mr_AFK has joined #ISDG
[21:43] {Kentonio> so they are hostile to a 5 square agreement for the next 30 turns but dont have an alternative?
[21:43] * E_T sets mode: +o mr_AFK
[21:43] * Kloreep has joined #ISDG
[21:43] * E_T sets mode: +o Kloreep
[21:43] {notyoueither> it is my job to find alternatives. i think.
[21:44] {notyoueither> Anti-poaching law: No civ shall build a city within a 8 tile radius of the other civ's capital
[21:44] {notyoueither> does that work?
[21:44] {Kentonio> how about advising them to stop dicking around unless they have something to replace it? You have been the one that has taken us this far. I hardly think we need people trying to hijack proceedings at this stage
[21:44] {Kentonio> 8 tile radius?!?!
[21:44] {Kentonio> how is that not worse for you?!?!
[21:45] {Trip> just throwing around ideas, just a sec Kento
[21:46] {notyoueither> btw, Kentonio. we are trying to react in real time to new ideas proposed from your side. patience, please.
[21:47] {E_T> this is a team game, gentlemen, and we ARE a form of Democracy
[21:48] {Kentonio> nye i have been delighted with the reasonable way you have negotiated with us tonight. Unlike certain previous negotiations we have felt like your side was willing to listen and seek a common ground for agreement. If our background team try and screw this sgreement at the last second to try and wrestle some last second advatage they can kiss the whole thing goodbye.
[21:48] {MasterZen> it is also beneficial to reach a deal after good thought has been given to it, not just rushing to finish the first deal that comes to our head
[21:50] {notyoueither> i appreciate your demeanour as well, kentonio. however, we need an agreement we are both happy with, or it will lead to discord down the road, yes?
[21:51] {Kentonio> true. and that is why last minute paranoia is particularly not welcome. We are talking about a deal that lasts 30 turns, is that so difficult for your people to agree on? How many cities do they imagine either of us can build in that time anyway?
[21:53] {notyoueither> true, kentonio. one moment.
[21:53] {Micaelis_Rex> i got to go guys, its been quite an experience
[21:54] {Trip> hehe
[21:54] {Trip> see ya Rex
[21:54] {Kentonio> goodnight rex
[21:54] {Micaelis_Rex> cya all later
[21:54] {WhiteBandit> man, we're at nearly 3 hours. just a few more minutes Micaelis_Rex
[21:54] {Micaelis_Rex> sorry, don't worry i'll review the deal for a couple hours tomarrow
[21:54] {notyoueither> bye rex.
[21:54] {Kentonio> yeah rex you wuss, you lasted the whole 4 hours last time
[21:55] {notyoueither> Kentonio. is a radius idea ebnough for now. i think it is all that we can agree to.
[21:55] {Elucidus> 14night dude
[21:55] {Micaelis_Rex> if i had my admin controls i would kick you right now kento
[21:55] {Micaelis_Rex> anyway, night all
[21:55] * Micaelis_Rex has quit IRC (Quit: )
[21:55] {E_T> you do
[21:56] {E_T> we are all op's here
[21:56] {Kentonio> radius? yes that was the idea. Is 5 times acceptable to you?
[21:56] {Kentonio> sqsorry
[21:56] {Kentonio> sqaures
[21:56] {MasterZen> tiles
[21:56] {Kentonio> squares rather not times
[21:56] {Kentonio> yes that
[21:56] {MasterZen>
[21:56] {notyoueither> 5 tiles from capitol? yes.
[21:56] {Elucidus> 14lol
[21:57] {Kentonio> sorry, lost the ability to type for a moment there
[21:57] {notyoueither> neither side settles within 5 tiles of the others capitol
[21:57] {Kentonio> yes thats fair
[21:57] {notyoueither> ok
[21:57] {notyoueither> 4 scratch 3 and 4 above
[21:58] {notyoueither> 4 3. Neither party will build a city witin 5 tiles of the other's capitol.
[21:58] {notyoueither> good?
[21:59] {Kentonio> a radius being a circle around the capitals rather than a line between us yes?
[21:59] {notyoueither> yes.
[22:00] {notyoueither> within 5 tiles carries a radius implicitly... i think.
[22:04] {E_T> .
[22:04] {notyoueither> kentonio. is everything so far right?
[22:04] {Kentonio> sorry, my council insist on a line 5 tiles away ne/sw of our capitals. It is a totally even and fair proposal. They will not accept the radius
[22:05] {Kentonio> it would not be a permanent situation, it would last just 30 turns
[22:05] {notyoueither> sorry, my people will not accept an unknown line running in unkown terrain. we could revisit this.
[22:06] {E_T> why won'
[22:06] {Kentonio> ?
[22:06] {E_T> why don't you think that the radius proposal is so fair?
[22:06] {notyoueither> e_t means to ask why the line is required, when poaching is the concern?
[22:06] {MasterZen> please consider that it is not in the strategic interest of either of our teams to found a city so close to our capitals, this is incentive enough not to poach
[22:06] {notyoueither> oops
[22:07] {Kentonio> so whats the problem with a line then Zen?
[22:07] {notyoueither> it extends in unknown terrain, and has the makings of permanet border.
[22:07] {MasterZen> as NYE said, it is not a good idea to negotiate over unknown terrain
[22:08] {Kentonio> its not unknown to us apart from a tiny part to the east judging from the sea we have found. It is all jungle and mountains
[22:08] {notyoueither> we would prefer to move in directions that will be consistent during later talks.
[22:08] {notyoueither> we do not know everything you do, kentonio, nor is the reverse true.
[22:09] {Kentonio> very true
[22:09] {notyoueither> so. is a radius sufficient?
[22:14] {Kentonio> please remember you are the not the ones penned in on either side
[22:15] {notyoueither> we have no desore to pen you in, knetonio, likewise, we desire no pen for ourselves.
[22:16] {notyoueither> *desire
[22:16] {notyoueither> *kentonio
[22:16] {Kentonio> yes and you dont have GC to your north
[22:16] {notyoueither> too late, too tired.
[22:16] {notyoueither> no, we have the sea.
[22:17] {Kentonio> i can agree with the too late, too tired setiment, its 5.15am here
[22:18] {Kentonio> shall we continue this tomorrow gentlemen?
[22:19] {notyoueither> can we send you a written proposal. soon. very soon.
[22:20] {Kentonio> ofc, i think we need a (hopefully brief) meeting tomorrow to iron out this final detail but I think we have made extraordinary progress so far
[22:21] {notyoueither> i think so too.
[22:21] {Kentonio> Then goodnight all, thank you for your time
[22:21] {bigfree1> wher GF is?
[22:21] {notyoueither> thank you.
[22:21] {Kentonio> ?
[22:21] {bigfree1> sorry; where;s GF?
[22:21] {WhiteBandit> GhengisFarb
[22:21] {Elucidus> 14night guys, and I hope we continue a long peaceful co-existance
[22:22] {notyoueither> agreed, Elucidus
[22:22] {Kentonio> Ghengisfarb wasnt available earlier, we'll try and get him online tomorrow
[22:22] {Elucidus> 14probably see you guys tomorrow
[22:22] {bigfree1> cool
[22:22] {Kentonio> night all
[22:22] * Kentonio has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
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[22:24] {E_T> 4 log ends
[22:25] * Elucidus has left #ISDG
[22:25] * E_T has left #ISDG
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[22:40] {mr_AFK> we are the only ones left
[22:40] {mr_AFK> us Polytonies
[22:41] {mr_AFK> quick, let's ban all the CDGers
[22:41] {mr_AFK> j/k
[22:41] {MasterZen> hahahaha
[22:41] {MasterZen> check your PM mr
[22:45] {mr_AFK> i will tomorrow morningg
[22:56] * Togas has left #isdg
[23:05] {mr_AFK> whatever.
[23:05] * mr_AFK has left #ISDG
[23:50] * MasterZen has left #ISDG
Session Close: Wed Mar 19 00:00:00 2003

Last edited by notyoueither on 19-03-2003 at 13:58