20-03-2003 19:53									#1
	Where to place Wittlich Ost Support Apolyton

South of the cow or on the hill.

Both can be reached by galley from Wittlich in one turn.

South of cow:

• No defensive benefit.
  
• Does not provide double protection of the straight.
  
• More adjacent land tiles means it is harder for an enemy to blockade the city.
  
• Better production capability and able to grow right from the start.
  
• Less overlapping tilies with Wittlich.
  

	20-03-2003 19:59									#2
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I think the biggest difference between the two is the trade off between the defensive benefit and the production/growth capability.

I would hate to lose a city when the war comes. As long as it doesn't come right away we will have a little time to put up defenses (more cities?) on what appear to be the hills to the west and northwest.

We are behind other teams and falling farther behind as we go. We need a productive city, not one that will be a drain on our resources for a while.

My vote is for south of the cow.

	20-03-2003 20:21									#3
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Thanks for the poll Harry. Much needed given recent discussion. I do see a third option though - which is west of the cow - on the northen most hill of that string of hills we can see. It will benefit from the cows tile, and whatever is on the other side of the hills.

I am still leaning towards the hill first - build walls - get a worker over - build a road to the next site. Have a spearman do a bit of a local walk around to pick out the best terrain.

And I still like the benefit of controlliing the strait - even at the cost of a low growth city. I know this is a benefit we could still claim via a city there in 15-20 turns.

So - still thinking about it.

	20-03-2003 21:22									#4
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Strategically putting across the chanel would be great. But, would would the other civs think, I think that this would be an open invitation for invasion, they would be foolish to let us have two cities across from each other dividing the strait with two potentail bombards each pass through. I have found that building too close to other cities to be dis-advantageous to civ growth, the key i find to growth is to have large cities that can support multiple taxmen/scientists. This helps especially later in the game.

	20-03-2003 23:19									#5
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I would still like to build on a hill. I'd have to check the screenshots again. I don't think other civs can complain too loudly at us building on both sides of the straight. If they aren't at war with us, it wont' matter

I would like to get 2 cities up quickly over there. The first defensive city, and a city that can immediately utilize the cows. I'm ok with these 2 cities sharing tiles. For defensive purposes we want them to be close.

	20-03-2003 23:33									#6
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Yup - makes sense. And that's why I like the second city on the hill west of the cows.

	21-03-2003 01:08									#7
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I say first city on hill top . second city on tile west of Cow.

	21-03-2003 01:10									#8
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I too voted for the hill (I know, no big surpirise! )

I am not worried about Wittlich Ost having poor growth - That's not why it's there. It will be there as a "fortress" of sorts (Yes, the first thing for its build queue should be walls). The other cities after Wittlich Ost is emplaced can and should concentrate on growth - along with some sort of defense.

	21-03-2003 01:12									#9
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Double Post

	21-03-2003 01:46									#10
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I don't mind some overlap but I do like my cities to grow. We need to get some cities up to size 10 or 12 using land tiles so they can be powerful builders. Otherwise it takes to long to build anything. On the hill Ost will take 20 turns to grow to size 2 and it will remain there for at least 30 turns after that, unless we spend money to rush a building and we have other uses for that same money. Lots of little cities that are poor producers will increase our corruption rate and may cost us more than they contribute.

Last night when I was reviewing the save I noticed our power and culture graph is shrinking compared to the other civs. We need cities that will help us, not stagnate for 50 turns.

	21-03-2003 02:55									#11
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I agree with Witt. the next city is more a fortress than a city. But the ones after this will be along the lines that you talk about Harry

	21-03-2003 02:55									#12
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South of cow.

Production = Military units. We might be better off defending ourselves with a productive city than a tactically well-placed city.

	21-03-2003 13:40									#13
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hmm you may have a point with that.

We can probalby get city walls up quicker with the other city. How about the other hills site that can utilzie the cows? I'll have to check the screen shots again.

sure would be nice if we could post them here

	21-03-2003 15:40									#14
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On the hill.

This city is only a foothold, we'll build productive ones later.

	21-03-2003 17:46									#15
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the city is there to control the channel, and start a foothold, nothing else.

	21-03-2003 22:58									#16
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the only bad thing is we'll have to rush things to get anything built. I guess the majority is for the hill.

We'll have build build some walls and a temple to epand the borders.

	21-03-2003 23:55									#17
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I agree the only things that have to be built in Wittlich Ost are walls(first) and a temple(second). A harbor can be built at another more productive city and connected to Wittlich Ost via raods. A barracks would be a nicety, but if we're not feeling any pressure from the other civs, this can be delayed indefinately.

	22-03-2003 00:08									#18
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are you sure temple instead of library?

library is faster, and we shouldn't have happiness problems there for a while

Jon Miller

	22-03-2003 00:25									#19
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quote: Macy wrote: the city is there to control the channel, and start a foothold, nothing else.

I do not consider control of the channel to be that important. Wittlich City already provides some control of the channel. Any civ that wants to invade us can come from above or below without going through the channel. If we are not at war with the civ then control of the channel does not matter.

The defensive benefits of the hill will only matter if we are attacked quickly or Ost is the only city we put on Bob. I would rather plan for a few more cities.

	22-03-2003 01:59									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller are you sure temple instead of library? library is faster, and we shouldn't have happiness problems there for a while Jon Miller

For Scientific civs(like us) Library costs the same as a temple.

So we need to decide between :
a) Happiness(1) and 2 culture.
2) 3 culture.

The Library science bonus is negligible until the city gets to size 3-4.

	22-03-2003 02:59									#21
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I setup a little test scenario with an island that looks like the part of Bob we can see which is the hill plus the seven plains and the cow. I put a settler on the hill. I created the capital on another island in the location as The Voice so the distance to the capital is the same. I went through the test twice, once with the city on the hill and once taking a turn to move the settler and building under the cow.

Hill: Build order is walls, library, barracks.

Turn
1 Build city. Start walls.
Food = 3 (1 surplus). Production = 2 (no waste)
11 Walls complete. Start library.
21 City grows to size 2.
Food = 4 (no surplus). Production = 2 (3 - 1 waste).
31 Library complete. Start barracks.
34 Borders expand. Laborer moved to cow.
Food = 5 (1 surplus). Production = 3 (4 - 1 waste).
46 Barracks complete.
54 City grows to size 3.
Food = 6 (no surplus). Production = 4 (5 - 1 waste).

Plains: Build order is walls, barracks, library.

Turn
1 Move settler to plains.
2 Build city. Start walls.
Food = 4 (2 surplus). Production = 2 (3 - 1 waste)
12 City grows to size 2.
Food = 5 (1 surplus). Production = 3 (4 - 1 waste)
Walls complete. Start barracks.
26 Barracks complete. Start library.
32 City grows to size 3.
Food = 6 (no surplus). Production = 4 (5 - 1 waste)
38 Library complete.

As you can see even allowing for the one turn to move the settler we can complete the three builds 8 turns quicker on the plains next to the cow. The plains location also provides more land tiles in the city's radius so future production potential is higher.

If we decide to go with a settler instead of the library on the plains location it could complete the settler on turn 35 or 36, nearly 20 turns before the hill location reaches size 3. This increases our ability to expand on Bob.

I think it is likely we could switch to Republic in less than 34 turns. If we do then the plains location will have even better growth from the cow since the hill location will not get that growth until turn 34. Plus the anarchy will delay the building of the hill library and the resulting border expansion so it will delay its growth even more. The plains location will get to use the cow through the anarchy period so its growth will not be affected.

	22-03-2003 03:01									#22
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quote: Eli wrote: For Scientific civs(like us) Library costs the same as a temple.

No. Library costs 40, temple 60. The library can be built faster (or cheaper if rushing) and it will expand the borders one turn quicker.

	22-03-2003 04:13									#23
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quote: No. Library costs 40, temple 60. The library can be built faster (or cheaper if rushing) and it will expand the borders one turn quicker.

You are right both on this issue and on the Wittlich Ost placement issue.

I change my vote from "On the hill" to "South of cow".

	22-03-2003 05:23									#24
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Ok Harry, you've make a very compelling point. I too would like to change my vote from "On the Hill" (though it would look sooo cool) to "South of Cow."

	22-03-2003 05:24									#25
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Besides, this location still allows for extended coverage of the Strait.

	22-03-2003 09:28									#26
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Edit: wrong thread.

	22-03-2003 09:30									#27
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Since we are about to build the city I want to discuss the name. Instead of Wittlich Ost shouldn't it be Wittlich West as it is west of Wittlich City? Or maybe Bob Ost since it is on the eastern most portion of Bob (as far as we can tell).

	22-03-2003 13:20									#28
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Actually, since the city site is only one tile from its orginal position, I believe we should keep the same name as before - this will also indicate to the other players that it is a suburb of one of our continental cities (pshycological warfare).

	22-03-2003 19:40									#29
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Witt, you missed my point. Ost means east but the city is west of Wittlich City.

	22-03-2003 19:45									#30
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Hah - you are right Harry - for some reason east and west has been hard to keep oriented at time.

So - as I agree 100% with Witt about the naming convention - I think we should name the new city Wittlich West, and the old one Wittlich East.