22-03-2003 01:01									#31
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quote: How do you say "a communist's viewpoints are meaningless"?

howdy, welcome to texas?

quote: BTW, China executes more people than the rest of the world combined. China, North Korea, and Cuba execute for preaching government overthrow and anarchy . Those 3 have something in common, but I can't seem to remember exactly what.

they all imprison a smaller percentage of their population than the US?

	22-03-2003 01:03									#32
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quote: BTW, China executes more people than the rest of the world combined.

Don't worry Sloww, you'll catch up.

quote: Clay's injection keeps Texas, which resumed the death penalty 20 years ago, on a pace to surpass the record 40 lethal injections carried out in 2000. Another is scheduled for next week and three more in April.

	22-03-2003 01:11									#33
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It never ceases to amaze me how people glorify totatlitarian, murderous "justice" systems.

	22-03-2003 01:14									#34
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And it's just as amazing to me that some would coddle murderers.

BTW, WB. I already posted the schedule that is current through July.
You read about as well as Guynemer.

	22-03-2003 01:14									#35
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand How do you say "a communist's viewpoints are meaningless"? BTW, China executes more people than the rest of the world combined. China, North Korea, and Cuba execute for preaching government overthrow and anarchy .

Actually, executions are very rare in Cuba. Either you had to be one of the torturers and murderers from Bautistsa's days or someone very, very bad. Last guy I remember them executing was a general who was convicted of smuggling drugs through Cuba to the US. For being a dissident in Cuba, you might go to jail, but as often as not, nothing happens.

Still, saying my viewpoint is meaningless is beside the point when I'm point out the fact that Texas has a serious problem when they're lying about evidence in court. They wrongly convicted a man of rape and sent him to jail for 25 years (he served four) before new tests showed he couldn't have done it.

The guy who got an injunction last week has an incompetent attorney who had never tried a capital case before. You get a lot of that in Texas, almost 1/3rd your death row inmates.

	22-03-2003 01:19									#36
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand BTW, WB. I already posted the schedule that is current through July. You read about as well as Guynemer.

In case you were talking to me, I suppose I should respond. My quote you may possibly recognise from your opening post, and was more of a "see above" comment than an attempt at enlightening you. I'm surprised that you and your vastly superior reading ability hadn't twigged that.

	22-03-2003 01:26									#37
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Boys, you're all in over your heads.

New tests, Che? Like, I don't know, DNA maybe?
I spoke to that.
"Get a lot of that"? Sorry.. I'm not one of the impressionable children that fall for rhetoric, merely on your say so.

Wombat, on to you.
It's not imcumbant on me to decipher your meaning.
I was quite clear in all my posts.
You should reciprocate with just such clarity.



NEXT!

	22-03-2003 01:32									#38
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It is incumbent on you to decipher my meaning if you wish to attempt a response with any kind of relevance. Which you did.
None of which is at all relevant to the discussion, so quit baiting.

	22-03-2003 01:39									#39
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Pardon me. Baiting you say?
From above.
"quote:

BTW, China executes more people than the rest of the world combined.

Don't worry Sloww, you'll catch up.

quote:

Clay's injection keeps Texas, which resumed the death penalty 20 years ago, on a pace to surpass the record 40 lethal injections carried out in 2000. Another is scheduled for next week and three more in April. "





Are you cutting in line?




NEXT!

	22-03-2003 01:46									#40
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Yeah, but my bait was death-penalty related, not an ad hominem.

	22-03-2003 01:47									#41
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It was faulty DNA evidence which put him in prison, Sloww. He was only convicted four years ago.

	22-03-2003 03:34									#42
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quote: It was faulty DNA evidence which put him in prison

gee che you better recheck your fact, I know nobody has ever been wrongly convicted of a crime before

sheesh some people

	22-03-2003 03:58									#43
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It happens frequently in Texas.

	22-03-2003 03:59									#44
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what do you mean by "faulty DNA evidence"?

DNA doesn't lie.

	22-03-2003 04:01									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel what do you mean by "faulty DNA evidence"? DNA doesn't lie.

DNA evidence can be contaminated, and it is never 100% accurate.

	22-03-2003 04:03									#46
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quote: How do you say "a communist's viewpoints are meaningless"?

Slowwhand: whatabout a Christian?

What about rehabilitation, or do you believe everyone guilty of murder will remain a murderer for the rest of their lives?

Does the death penalty in Texas reduce violent crime?

	22-03-2003 04:22									#47
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quote: It happens frequently in Texas

i know, just being sarcastic, i don't trust anybody in law enforcement half as far as i can throw them

anyways

the purpose of the criminal justice system is to

punish: which the death penalty does, except the punishment is irreversible, so any faulty convictions are just as much of a tragedy as the crimes that spawned it

rehabilitate: the death penalty doesn't even pretend to do this

deter: nope

quote: In adjacent states – one with the death penalty and the other without it – the state that practices the death penalty does not always show a consistently lower rate of criminal homicide. For example, between l990 and l994, the homicide rates in Wisconsin and Iowa (non-death-penalty states) were half the rates of their neighbor, Illinois – which restored the death penalty in l973, and by 1994 had sentenced 223 persons to death and carried out two executions.7

http://www.aclu.org/DeathPenalty/De...&c=17#deterrent

prevent crimes by the same criminals: it isn't any better than life behind bars

quote: For the most part, though, guards are succeeding in keeping prisons secure. True, in 1997 some 5,380 inmates escaped from state and federal prisons in the US. But that represented only 0.5 percent of the prison population and was down from the 1.5 percent escape rate in the 1980s. Then, as now, the escapes were overwhelmingly "walkaways" from low-security facilities.

http://csmweb2.emcweb.com/durable/1998/12/03/p2s1.htm

	22-03-2003 04:28									#48
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quote: DNA evidence can be contaminated, and it is never 100% accurate.

contaminated by the accused?

	22-03-2003 09:46									#49
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Interesting Sloww. So you chose option 3. I'd hoped that you at least had enough sense to go with option 2. Admit that your true reason for supporting the DP is limited to "'cuz they needed killing," and not any notion of escape or prison violence. At least that is an argument that can't be refuted.

You provided absolutely zero evidence for your claims, and only ranted and raving about your links that ranged from the completely irrelevant to the hopelessly biased.

And so, I have but one final question.

Who is your rhetorical daddy?


You lose, cowboy.

	22-03-2003 12:40									#50
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quote: What about rehabilitation, or do you believe everyone guilty of murder will remain a murderer for the rest of their lives?

What about it? You murder someone viciously and premeditated, proved with DNA and beyond the shadow of a doubt, then you should be executed. Rehabilitation is only one of the four reasons for punishment. The others are deterrance, incapacitation, and retribution. The death penalty covers all of those three.

quote: In adjacent states – one with the death penalty and the other without it – the state that practices the death penalty does not always show a consistently lower rate of criminal homicide. For example, between l990 and l994, the homicide rates in Wisconsin and Iowa (non-death-penalty states) were half the rates of their neighbor, Illinois – which restored the death penalty in l973, and by 1994 had sentenced 223 persons to death and carried out two executions.7

Could it be they are asking the wrong question? They compared the numbers of 1990-94. What about the murder rates of Wisconsin, Iowa, and Illinois BEFORE 1973? And these stats are definetly clouded by the fact that Illinois has Chicago in it. Wisconsin and Iowa have no city even close to that size. Why don't we compare the murder rate in New York and Illinois (NY doesn't have the death penalty, IIRC).

Like the old saying goes: There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

	22-03-2003 14:25									#51
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quote: And it's just as amazing to me that some would coddle murderers.

Nah, I have no sympathy for the state.

quote: Rehabilitation is only one of the four reasons for punishment. The others are deterrance, incapacitation, and retribution. The death penalty covers all of those three.

1. Retribution is an immoral use of force. I don't see how it can possibly be justified. At all. Would you mind explaining?
2. The death penalty obviously doesn't deter crime any better than life in prison. We just had this conversation.
3. Life in prison can prevent a person from harming others just as well as the death penalty can. OTOH, if you kill him, you guarantee that another person dies.

	22-03-2003 14:35									#52
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quote: Retribution is an immoral use of force. I don't see how it can possibly be justified. At all. Would you mind explaining?

What is there to explain? I don't care about your morality. I don't share it at all. IMO, retribution, through the authority of the soverign (which is the state here), is justified. In short, I believe retribution is moral (about as moral as rehabilitation actually).

When someone kills someone while drunk and behind the whell of a car, I WANT them to spend their life in jail. This is retribution (and includes a lot of deterrance), but I feel they deserved it.

quote: The death penalty obviously doesn't deter crime any better than life in prison. We just had this conversation.

Yes, and I think I won it .

quote: Life in prison can prevent a person from harming others just as well as the death penalty can. OTOH, if you kill him, you guarantee that another person dies.

The 'other' person deserved to die because of his crimes. Btw, what do you do if the killer shows that he may murder while in prision?

	22-03-2003 14:41									#53
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It happens frequently in Texas.

It happens everywhere. It is the fault of the justice system. unfortunately, its the best we can do.

	22-03-2003 14:42									#54
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quote: What is there to explain? I don't care about your morality. I don't share it at all. IMO, retribution, through the authority of the soverign (which is the state here), is justified. In short, I believe retribution is moral (about as moral as rehabilitation actually)

[/quote]

Yes, which is why I'm asking why you believe retribution is moral...

quote: Yes, and I think I won it .

I think you got *****-slapped.

quote: The 'other' person deserved to die because of his crimes.[/uote] You already brought up retribution. I was referring to your claim of incapacitance alone. [quote]Btw, what do you do if the killer shows that he may murder while in prision?

Provide psychological counseling. Restrain him if necessary.

	22-03-2003 14:44									#55
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quote: quote: In adjacent states – one with the death penalty and the other without it – the state that practices the death penalty does not always show a consistently lower rate of criminal homicide. For example, between l990 and l994, the homicide rates in Wisconsin and Iowa (non-death-penalty states) were half the rates of their neighbor, Illinois – which restored the death penalty in l973, and by 1994 had sentenced 223 persons to death and carried out two executions.7 Could it be they are asking the wrong question? They compared the numbers of 1990-94. What about the murder rates of Wisconsin, Iowa, and Illinois BEFORE 1973? And these stats are definetly clouded by the fact that Illinois has Chicago in it. Wisconsin and Iowa have no city even close to that size. Why don't we compare the murder rate in New York and Illinois (NY doesn't have the death penalty, IIRC). Like the old saying goes: There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

gah! you got to it before i could

	22-03-2003 14:47									#56
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quote: Yes, which is why I'm asking why you believe retribution is moral...

Because people should face the consequences of their actions. If they kill someone, then they should be behind bars for a lengthy time, because they deserve it. They did the act, the consequence is you go away for a while.

And secondly, you can't let people walk away scot free for doing something which is considered wrong by the society. If you do something wrong, you should be put away, because, once again, you have to be responsible for your actions.

	22-03-2003 14:50									#57
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You didn't answer my question. You just restated what retribution is.

	22-03-2003 14:51									#58
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quote: Yes, which is why I'm asking why you believe retribution is moral...

"Retribution" is the wrong word. Punishment is re-education of the individual, keeping him away from society, as well as deterring potential criminals.

	22-03-2003 14:52									#59
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No, Imran specifically used retribution: "Rehabilitation is only one of the four reasons for punishment. The others are deterrance, incapacitation, and retribution. The death penalty covers all of those three."

	22-03-2003 14:56									#60
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quote: You didn't answer my question.

Yes I did. You asked why I think it is moral. I said because it makes people face the consequences of their actions. It makes people responsible for their actions. THAT is why I think it is moral.

And Azazel, retribution is the correct word. It is one of the four reasons.