22-03-2003 14:16									#181
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quote: Imagine...Soccer Mom in F-350 with a "My Son is an Honor Student" bumpersticker, Jesus fish, with a large American flag in the bed of the pickup (w00t).

No problem with that. Let them drive that if they want. How many soccer moms drive pickups rather than minivans though?

You ask how many people use pickups as pickups? Most of them, I'd wager. Pickups are expensive. For the same price you can get a minivan or SUVs. Most soccer moms and suburbanite fathers will go for a minivan or SUV anyday over a pickup. The only people I've really seen that drive a pickup for uses other than a pickup are those that have both them used for VERY cheap or those that got it from their parents.

	22-03-2003 14:20									#182
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btw I'm a navy vet, but strangely flag burning does not affect me.

I have never been that symbolic in my life though.

Words affect me more than a flag.

But I do consider myself patriotic though. One of the reasons I joined the military. If I only joined just for the money, wouldn't that make me a mercenary?.

	22-03-2003 14:21									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I don't do that. But I do realize I live in a pretty nice country. And I will do what it takes to prevent that country from being taken away by terrorists. And yes they can defeat us. they have already succeeded in spreading a large amount of fear throughout the U.S.

But the point is, that has nothing to do with Iraq, which is at least one thing that the protesters are protesting.

It shouldn't be surprising that the same people who attended candlelight vigils are now protesting the war. the vigils were aabout praying for peace and mourning the dead. what's happening now is about destroying peace and creating more dead. They are the oness being consistant here, even if they occassionally seem like morons.

It's been said over and over that it took only 18 months for Bush to squander the good will of the world. That applies to at least some of the US as well.

	22-03-2003 14:22									#184
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quote: (what do you think boot camp is for?).

err... military training?
yes, some military men are uber-patriotic, but most of these are military people because they are patriotic, they are not patriotic as a result of being military.


is that understandable what I wrote? i need to go to bed

	22-03-2003 14:25									#185
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman err... military training?

Military training is only part of it...
It's indoctrination, too. Everyone wears the same clothes, everyone shaves their head, everyone is trained and they salute the American flag each morning(?), that kind of thing.

It all works brilliantly at the end, but it is a form of indoctrination mixed in with training...

	22-03-2003 14:26									#186
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quote: But the point is, that has nothing to do with Iraq, which is at least one thing that the protesters are protesting.

But the more intelligent protestors, I hope, can see the 'terrorist' reasoning for going after Iraq (namely getting a foothold in the ME which can aide us right in the middle of the maelstrom).

	22-03-2003 14:27									#187
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I posted above about Iraq.

The right reason we are doing it for (we are doing it for several reasons) is for the Iraqi people

Do the protestors not care about them?

Don't answer. I already know the answer to that. They only care about themselves and their friends and getting attention.

	22-03-2003 14:29									#188
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and I never saluted an american flag in boot camp!!

althought that does seem strange come to think of it


or maybe I did? I never paid attention.

We were mostly in formation. And I don't think we saluted while in formation. Damn, I'm starting to forget that stuff.

I never placed much importance on saluting . Including officers

	22-03-2003 14:31									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Military training is only part of it... It's indoctrination, too. Everyone wears the same clothes, everyone shaves their head, everyone is trained and they salute the American flag each morning(?), that kind of thing. It all works brilliantly at the end, but it is a form of indoctrination mixed in with training...

perhaps, but im sure most of them were ready to die fighting for their country before enlisting, and not prepared to be ready to die for their country in boot. And the indoctrination must suck, cause during Veitnam, most draftees who were anti-war or indiffernet towards it before shipping off continued to be, and only grew more bitter towards the US during their service.

A lot of other people join the military also for just the adventure, or for the educational benefits, and could care less about "the ultimate sacrifice".

	22-03-2003 14:33									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman perhaps, but im sure most of them were ready to die fighting for their country before enlisting, and not prepared to be ready to die for their country in boot.

Oh, no doubt. Unless they're drafted.

	22-03-2003 14:34									#191
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I think we can all agree that a volunteer military is the way to go. It makes things so much easier on so many levels.

	22-03-2003 18:58									#193
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: But the point is, that has nothing to do with Iraq, which is at least one thing that the protesters are protesting. But the more intelligent protestors, I hope, can see the 'terrorist' reasoning for going after Iraq (namely getting a foothold in the ME which can aide us right in the middle of the maelstrom).

We already have Turkey and Israel for that, as well as Kuwait and, of course, our good pals in the House of Saud. There may be good reasons to invade Iraq -- I won't argue that point here -- but whatever the reaason, it's got f*ck all to do with terrorism.

	22-03-2003 20:10									#194
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I posted above about Iraq. The right reason we are doing it for (we are doing it for several reasons) is for the Iraqi people Do the protestors not care about them? Don't answer. I already know the answer to that. They only care about themselves and their friends and getting attention.

That has got to be one of the most pathetic things I have ever read. Like I said before, Americans rarely put common sense and their patriotism together.

	22-03-2003 21:50									#195
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I'm going to point out the blatantly obvious here, since some seem to have forgotten it:

Most who burn the flag don't hate the American people; they hate the American government. I really don't understand why people take it so personally.

On the flip side, I don't understand all the Poly folks who have taken to sporting the Iraqi flag... that shows support for Saddam, not the Iraqi people.

There are so many people so full of **** on this board...

	22-03-2003 22:00									#196
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I didn't intend for anyone to get banned over this. I finally have an opinion and it has to be about this

The bottom line on this for me is.....yes I'm proud of my Flag, no it isn't just a piece of cloth to me. My family gave their lives and time and honor defending the Flag so when someone does burn it especially some young wet behing the ears kid who wasn't even a twinkle in his mother's eyes while the Vietnam war was going on much less WWII, sitting there shouting "hell no we won't go" doesn't even have a clue what he's talking about. They are just spouting retoric or something they read in a book.

And I have to agree. I think those same kids would take a different view if they had to go and live in a country without privilage and freedom and cd players and cell phones and street corners on which to burn their country's flag. To much is just assumed in this country and you know what they say about assume.

	22-03-2003 23:12									#197
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Tiamat, just don't get too upset over that. They are trolls, plain and simple. Most of them have no real values or ideals. They just do it to piss off the norm. I'm talking about the flagburners btw in addition to the trolls on this forum. They have the same objective of pissing people off.

	22-03-2003 23:15									#198
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And Cinna. Do you not believe horrible things are going on over there?

Saddams oldest son has scout go out and pick up women for him to rape. He killed a military officer he did not like and raped his wife and threw her over a balcony.

Do you not care about women being raped?

I thought liberal anti-war people were supposed to care about those things

And I already illustrated why we can't help other nations in need. Because we would get our asses kicked. We are a strong nation- but not that strong!

	23-03-2003 00:02									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Our mods are leftists, didn't you know ? More seriously, they try to only punish name calling and incivility, not opposed views. You can be leftist however you want, if you are civil by doing so, seemingly.

Spiffor, I'm back. Thanks for your support.

In earlier posts, you said that you do not understand why Americans feel the way we do about our flag and that you do not feel the same way about the French flag. I suggest this has a lot to do with our different histories.

If you know, can you give us a brief history of your flag?

From some of the things I have seen on the web, the French do not trace their nation to the Franks, per se, but to the Romans and Gauls before them. Given such a long history and change of governments, I can see how one can be a little blaze about the current government and its flag.

	23-03-2003 00:18									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident And Cinna. Do you not believe horrible things are going on over there? Saddams oldest son has scout go out and pick up women for him to rape. He killed a military officer he did not like and raped his wife and threw her over a balcony. Do you not care about women being raped? I thought liberal anti-war people were supposed to care about those things And I already illustrated why we can't help other nations in need. Because we would get our asses kicked. We are a strong nation- but not that strong!

One more time: you can be both anti-Saddam and anti-war. Many of us are. Many of us feel that while Saddam is a very bad guy, inspections and containment were working, and he certainly wasn't worth shredding the fabric of Internationalism over. Bush may have ended, once and for all, the feeling around the world that the US actually had some moral authority, and not just big guns. We may get Iraq, but at the expense of the esteem in which we were once held by many, many other nations and peoples. Will it have been worth it? Time will tell, but those of us who doubt it must protest, not in favor of Saddam but against what President Caligula is doing to the nation we love.

	23-03-2003 00:23									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Tiamat, just don't get too upset over that. They are trolls, plain and simple. Most of them have no real values or ideals. They just do it to piss off the norm. I'm talking about the flagburners btw in addition to the trolls on this forum. They have the same objective of pissing people off.

Sorry dis, but I'm not going to fall into THAT troll

Tiamat: OK, its your right to love your flag. But just dont take it so personal if someone burns the flag. It means they hate the current government (usually.).

(Argh. I have to make this post sound nice with no trolls...) I respectfully disagree with you. Your family hasn't died for the flag....its died for freedom and liberty. It's died so that others CAN burn the flag. Or not burn it. Or so someone can go out and say "Down with Bush! Down with Clinton!" or wave a communist flag. Your family has died so that we can have private news media and so that you can go down and buy some candy without needing government approval or so that a group of Russian, Japanese, and Arab immigrants can come over to this country to start a new life. Your family has died for all that and more, but not for a flag.

	23-03-2003 00:35									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 I respectfully disagree with you. Your family hasn't died for the flag....its died for freedom and liberty. It's died so that others CAN burn the flag. Or not burn it. Or so someone can go out and say "Down with Bush! Down with Clinton!" or wave a communist flag. Your family has died so that we can have private news media and so that you can go down and buy some candy without needing government approval or so that a group of Russian, Japanese, and Arab immigrants can come over to this country to start a new life. Your family has died for all that and more, but not for a flag.

Now that might be the most intelligent thing I've ever seen you write.

More of that; less of being a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk, okay?

	23-03-2003 00:39									#203
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I didn't think you had it in you, Tass.

	23-03-2003 02:06									#204
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quote: Originally posted by Guynemer More of that; less of being a jerk just for the sake of being a jerk, okay?

Alright........At least I wont be banned for it

	23-03-2003 02:29									#205
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Sorry dis, but I'm not going to fall into THAT troll Tiamat: OK, its your right to love your flag. But just dont take it so personal if someone burns the flag. It means they hate the current government (usually.). (Argh. I have to make this post sound nice with no trolls...) I respectfully disagree with you. Your family hasn't died for the flag....its died for freedom and liberty. It's died so that others CAN burn the flag. Or not burn it. Or so someone can go out and say "Down with Bush! Down with Clinton!" or wave a communist flag. Your family has died so that we can have private news media and so that you can go down and buy some candy without needing government approval or so that a group of Russian, Japanese, and Arab immigrants can come over to this country to start a new life. Your family has died for all that and more, but not for a flag.

OMG!

First post Ive read where you haven't been an ass hole! You might actually make some friends at this rate

Kman

	23-03-2003 03:38									#206
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I don't care one iota if a "foreigner" burns the American flag, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand down while some son of a bisquit eater American citizen does it in the name of "free speech". Especially a career civilian.

	23-03-2003 04:18									#207
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Freedom of speech doesn't mean defending only the speech you agree with. "Freedom of speech" means defending other people's right to express ideas that you've spent your whole life fighting against.

The biggest threat to American's freedoms comes from those people who take the position that you're only a patriot if you support to government's position and that anyone who burns a flag in protest hates America.

	23-03-2003 04:23									#208
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quote: Freedom of speech doesn't mean defending only the speech you agree with. "Freedom of speech" means defending other people's right to express ideas that you've spent your whole life fighting against.

No one said they'd ban burning the flag. We've just said that those that do better watch out for our counter free-speech .

	23-03-2003 05:13									#209
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quote: OMG! First post Ive read where you haven't been an ass hole! You might actually make some friends at this rate Kman

Hmm, I seem to be recieving a very positive response.

I suppose I should continue down this behavioral track

	23-03-2003 05:15									#210
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I don't care one iota if a "foreigner" burns the American flag, but I'll be damned if I'm going to stand down while some son of a bisquit eater American citizen does it in the name of "free speech". Especially a career civilian.

Listen to yourself. More power to the flag burners I say.