22-03-2003 04:11									#91
	Re: Re: Re: Flag waving.......Flag burning Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Oh, and just for you

If you want to protest the war do so. If you want to call Bush a moron do so. But if I see anyone burning the flag, I will be in their face so quick that they will not know what happen, and for the next few minuted buring the flag will the last thing on their mind.

US Navy VET.

	22-03-2003 04:15									#92
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I've never burned a flag and I don't ever intend to do so. I don't see the point. All it does is piss people off. I'm with Boris' grandfather, though. If they make it illegal, I'll start burning them.

	22-03-2003 04:16									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Well, I follow my grandfather's notions on this. A WWII veteran, he said the day they make it illegal to burn a flag in this country is the day he lights one up, because what the flag stands for as much as anything else is the freedom to express oneself, even in such an offensive way.

I'm with you on that, Boris.

However, I still find it offensive when people do it. I wouldn't advocate them being punished for doing so, of course, but my reaction is still

	22-03-2003 04:19									#94
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Burning a flag is on the same moral level as p!ssing on a grave. I get very insulted even by minor abuses to the Swedish flag.

- Olympic gold medalists using the Swedish flag as a piece of clothing, almost like a towel to absorb their sweath. They might even, by accident let it touch the ground while running an extra lap around the stadion to celebrate. Letting the flag touch the ground is a sign of disrespect and a sign you want to surrender. Even if their intention is to proudly show the flag to the world, they quite often accomplish the opposite - to humiliate the nation for which they just won the gold medal (at least in my eyes).

- Sport fans going to international championships spray paint grafitti of their local team or home town right across the flag to show off to the TV audience. I get offended by that. A flag should be free from graffiti.

- I was perhaps a little too arrogant myself once. The day after the Swedish hockey team won the 1994 Olympics, I brought my 50 cm long flag to school to celebrate (at every moment holding it high, or respectfully winded around it's aluminium pole.) That would be perfectly fine in Sweden, but at the moment I was living in Finland. The Finns take their hockey very seriously - it's even a more frequent topic at Finnish drinking parties than the winter war of 1939. At a brake, I hanged the flag on the wall of our student club room and sat beside it with a cup of tea. Another student got offended by the sight of a Swedish flag (The Finns were extremely yellous at the moment, as the Lions didn't even reach the finals) so he tried to burn it! I was able to stop him in time, but if he would had fulfilled, I might just had beaten him to death with the aluminium flag pole. Thank God he didn't burn it, as I would still be in jail.

	22-03-2003 04:23									#95
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All around the world...

santiago de chile 02-May-01

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	22-03-2003 04:23									#96
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I have no sympathy for anyone who would commit violence in "defense" of a flag, any moreso than I would have sympathy for someone who commits violence in defense of any other inanimate objects. Symbolic value does not connote justification for violence.

	22-03-2003 04:24									#97
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Thessaloniki 05-Apr-01

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	22-03-2003 04:25									#98
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We can, however, do without the pictures, thanks.

	22-03-2003 04:26									#99
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Goteborg 14-June-01

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	22-03-2003 04:27									#100
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Berne 06-Apr-02

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	22-03-2003 04:27									#101
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Symbolic value does not connote justification for violence.

Note:

MtG's on the prowl guys.
And he doesn't seem to fear bannings.
We can debate without pictures.

With each picture you confirm the symbolic meaning of the flag.

	22-03-2003 04:28									#102
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Cairo 09-Sep-01

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	22-03-2003 04:30									#103
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Perhaps you could find something else to do?

Trying to instigate and reignite flame wars is somewhat pathetic.

	22-03-2003 04:31									#104
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quote: Originally posted by jolair Goteborg 14-June-01

One of those guys, or at least one of their friends, was shot by the Swedish police the day after. He had it coming.

EDIT: What's wrong with pictures? They help us to understand the subject. If you get offended, fine! That's the purpose of the flag burners. If you don't get offended, thats fine too. Then you are extremely tolerant persons.

As I said before, burning a flag (of any nation) is like p!ssing on a grave.

	22-03-2003 04:35									#105
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I'll never burn a flag. It's a stupid thing.

Have you ever ask yourself why all around the world people burn your flag more than any other?

You should be proud of that?

You don't care about it?

Btw what exactly means turn USA flag up - down...

thanks

	22-03-2003 04:37									#106
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quote: Btw what exactly means turn USA flag up - down...

That's been answered elsewhere in this very thread.

To turn the flag upside-down signifies national distress.

	22-03-2003 04:49									#107
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quote: As I said before, burning a flag (of any nation) is like p!ssing on a grave.

See this is the point I was trying to make. And yes I also agree with Boris. While I feel that burning the Flag is an abomination.......it's still our right. Which is the point I made in the first post. We live in a country that gives us the freedom and the right to do so.

And I also agree......all the people that post burning flags....just reiterate the point. Thank you

	22-03-2003 04:49									#108
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Since many people made it clear they were offended seeing their flag burnt, I also think we could do without the pictures.
I hardly think most Americans are ready to wonder "why" today.
Because all the wondering after Sept. 11 was buried under bigotry that terrorists hate the US because it is the Land of the Free (basically, but please tell me if I am wrong, and if the "why?" feeling is as strong today as it was at Sept. 12)
This bigotry seems to be extremely present within the US now. At least, that's the impression I got when I see many pro-war Americans insisting how right their army is in smiting evil.

In the current context, I think showing pictures of flags getting burned can only upset people with minimal results

Edit : however, show as many pictures of upside-down flags as you want. They are a legitimate call to end the folly that has taken America, it's much different than a call to destroy America.

	22-03-2003 05:11									#109
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Here in spain if you wear a T-shirt with the spanish flag everybody would think you are a fascist (a spanish one, of course).

It isn't easy to explain...

For me a flag is just a piece of material.

To burn a flag IMO is just a stupid thing, not an abomination. To kill people is an abomination.

	22-03-2003 05:16									#110
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Spiffor: I think you may have hit it right on the nose. From what I have seen, Americans, even close family and friends of mine, are generally unwilling to accept the atrocities that their government and flag have committed around the world. Instead they choose to only fan the flames (excuse the pun ) of ignorance by hiding behind the "terrorists hate us because we are free" and "they are all cowards" line. Frankly, the word coward is being thrown around just as much as the word Red was during the 1950's. If this really was the case, I think we would see a lot more Maple Leaf and Australian flags burned. But don't expect your average American to put common sense and patriotism together. Its more like they turn off common sense when they get in that patriotic mood.

	22-03-2003 05:37									#111
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Hey New Yorker! *waves*

	22-03-2003 05:43									#112
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jolair... you are restricted for a week for trying to get a flame war going with your repeated posting of mulitple pictures of the flag being burned. I can understand one or two picks... but you went overboard... and now you are toast.

	22-03-2003 07:46									#113
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 tia: Don't be sorry for expressing your opinion, by reducing your thoughts to mere opinion. The examples you provide are of real patriotism, and not mindless flagwaving. Your uncle was a POW for 8 years, in the service of his country? And all this forum offers to such a sacrifice is to spit in reply? Sad. What could motivate someone to survive in such conditions for so long? That is the real question we should be asking here.

I respectfully disagree. I think that Tia was expressing her opinion in a very personal and emotional way, which is something that she certainly has the right to do, but to say that her uncle survived for 8 years in terrible conditions because of his patriotism or something like that is delusive at best. He survived because that is rule number one to all of us: to survive.

	22-03-2003 08:12									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Alexnm I respectfully disagree. I think that Tia was expressing her opinion in a very personal and emotional way, which is something that she certainly has the right to do, but to say that her uncle survived for 8 years in terrible conditions because of his patriotism or something like that is delusive at best. He survived because that is rule number one to all of us: to survive.

You was not there, so how would you know.
A black American POW made a flag and the flag was found by the NVA and they beat him something terrible and when he was returned to his cell, he make another flag. John McCain was one of his cellmates and he John told the story after returning to the US.

	22-03-2003 08:24									#115
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Countries are made of people, not fabric.

	22-03-2003 08:38									#116
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Those who burn flags usually do so out of hate for the people of the country the flag symbolizes. At least, it seems to apply to Israel. I suppose many Star-Spangled-Banner-Arsonists have a deep hate for the US too, and wouldn't mind its destruction.

	22-03-2003 08:40									#117
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Perhaps it is just part of American culture, where value is placed on the flag.

	22-03-2003 09:20									#118
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cool ppl get banned like mad here, threads are being locked and stuff, and me with my leftist views have never been banned!! how come

	22-03-2003 09:56									#119
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Our mods are leftists, didn't you know ?
More seriously, they try to only punish name calling and incivility, not opposed views. You can be leftist however you want, if you are civil by doing so, seemingly.

	22-03-2003 10:32									#120
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Our mods are leftists, didn't you know ?

Really? Ming and MtG strike me as right of centre.

Of course, what do I know? I'm just a lowly peon from the upper forums.