21-03-2003 22:57									#1
	Victory! How do we achieve it. Support Apolyton

Most of our focus is on Foreign Affairs, city placement, and city production. We also need to keep an eye on the goal of this game, which is to win, to make sure our decisions will help us achieve victory. Here is a review of the victory conditions and what I think about each one as applied to this game.

Space Race

I win most of my SP games by Space Race. By being the tech leader with highly productive cities this is fairly easy. Also, by this point, the game has usually been a foregone conclusion and I just want to get it over with.

We are neither a tech leader nor have highly productive cities in the works. We will need to improve both areas and make sure we are still a world player in the Modern Times to have a chance at the Space Race.

Diplomacy

I have never won by Diplomacy, but then I have never setup a game that would make this victory easier to achieve. I usually play large maps with lots of civs. The more civs there are the harder it is to win by Diplomacy. To even have a chance at this you must build the UN, or be a dominant civ in either controlling territory or population.

A human player knows that voting for another civ means they lose. Any team that still has hopes of winning the game will vote for themselves or abstain to prevent a winner. The only way I see a Diplomatic victory occurring is if there are a couple of small hopeless civs still remaining that can be persuaded to vote for another civ. Possible, but not likely.

We are currently 6th in land area and population. We will need to make significant improvements in these areas or control the UN to have a chance at a Diplomatic victory.

Cultural Victory

There are two ways to win by culture: (1) A city with over 20,000 culture points or (2) a civ with over 100,000 culture points and twice the culture of the nearest rival. I have won by both methods. When I went over 20,000 in a city I had a great place for my capital. It had high growth and great production. I ended up building a lot of wonders there. When I won with 100,000 culture I had a large civ with lots of cities. Even in the highly corrupt cities I put in culture improvements (mostly by forests and rushing).

I do not think a Cultural Victory will happen in this game. The tech pace is moving too fast compared to city production and no wonders have been built. We are lagging behind in culture so I don't think this is even an option for us.

Score

Win by having the highest score when the game ends in the year 2050. I have never won by this method. I have always had the highest score when my games end but they never make it to 2050.

Given the fast tech pace of this game I don't think the game will last to 2050. Even if it did, we are currently last in score so we would have a lot of work to do to improve our position.

Conquest

Conquer the world. Be the last civ standing. Unless this is done early in the game it is more likely that a Domination victory will occur first.

Considering our weak military power I don't think this would be a good goal for us.

Domination

Control 66% of the worlds land mass in your borders. I am not sure if this includes coast and sea tiles as well since borders extend to them. The very first Civ3 game I played I won by Domination. It was rather sudden since I was not expecting it.

If the game last any time at all this is a lot more likely than Conquest. You only need to settle lands, not wipe out every civ.

This is achievable. We are currently last in territory so we will need to increase our growth rate and create a military that can defend our lands as well as acquire more once there is no more empty land to settle.




For this game I believe that victories by Culture and Score are out for everyone. Someone could try for Conquest but I doubt it will happen since Domination will likely occur first. A Diplomatic victory is possible but unlikely.

The way I see it, the two most likely victories for us or any other team is Space Race and Domination. The path to both victories is not that far apart. The main difference is timing. The Space Race requires you to be current in techs and have productive cities in the Modern era, but you can not lag too far behind and try to play catch-up at the last minute. Domination requires you to stay current in military techs and have productive cities that can support a strong military.

In the short term we need to stake a claim to a corner of Bob, settle North Estonia, and provide a military to fortify our claim to these lands. This will provide a basis for an improved research rate and increased production.

	21-03-2003 22:58									#2
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the game will not likely last to space race

it will be dominatino (or conquer)

jon Miller

	22-03-2003 00:30									#3
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With the pace of tech trading and research I think the Space Race is a possibility. I forsee where there is a balance with 4 civs. One in Legoland, one on Estonia, and two on Bob. Tech trading would slow down if it gets to be two alliances like that but it will go quickly until then, possibly all the way to the start of the Industrial age. Then, if the balance happens, it will be on to the Space Race. Otherwise Domination is the most likely.

	22-03-2003 02:12									#4
	Re: Victory! How do we achieve it. Support Apolyton

quote: Space Race I win most of my SP games by Space Race. By being the tech leader with highly productive cities this is fairly easy. Also, by this point, the game has usually been a foregone conclusion and I just want to get it over with. We are neither a tech leader nor have highly productive cities in the works. We will need to improve both areas and make sure we are still a world player in the Modern Times to have a chance at the Space Race.

I'm willing to bet that this is how someone will eventually win.

quote: We are currently 6th in land area and population. We will need to make significant improvements in these areas or control the UN to have a chance at a Diplomatic victory.

Which is difficuly since our expansion on Estonia is blocked and we're force to expand navally which is always slower.
Also, both Estonia and (probably) our new lands are filled with plains and without rivers. That's a major problem.

quote: Cultural Victory There are two ways to win by culture: (1) A city with over 20,000 culture points or (2) a civ with over 100,000 culture points and twice the culture of the nearest rival. I have won by both methods. When I went over 20,000 in a city I had a great place for my capital. It had high growth and great production. I ended up building a lot of wonders there. When I won with 100,000 culture I had a large civ with lots of cities. Even in the highly corrupt cities I put in culture improvements (mostly by forests and rushing). I do not think a Cultural Victory will happen in this game. The tech pace is moving too fast compared to city production and no wonders have been built. We are lagging behind in culture so I don't think this is even an option for us.

Wont happen.
(1) is too difficult to achieve and (2) is highly unlikely because unlike the AI humans put much more emphasis on culture, so even if one civ gets 100,000 points many others will have more than half of that.

quote: Score Win by having the highest score when the game ends in the year 2050. I have never won by this method. I have always had the highest score when my games end but they never make it to 2050. Given the fast tech pace of this game I don't think the game will last to 2050. Even if it did, we are currently last in score so we would have a lot of work to do to improve our position.

Agreed.

quote: Conquest Conquer the world. Be the last civ standing. Unless this is done early in the game it is more likely that a Domination victory will occur first. Considering our weak military power I don't think this would be a good goal for us.

Not for us and not for other civs. Unless someone had exceptionally good starting location.

quote: Domination Control 66% of the worlds land mass in your borders. I am not sure if this includes coast and sea tiles as well since borders extend to them. The very first Civ3 game I played I won by Domination. It was rather sudden since I was not expecting it. If the game last any time at all this is a lot more likely than Conquest. You only need to settle lands, not wipe out every civ. This is achievable. We are currently last in territory so we will need to increase our growth rate and create a military that can defend our lands as well as acquire more once there is no more empty land to settle.

Possible, but IMO it's not likely. Waging wars for land against human players(especially teams!) is by far more difficult than against the AI.

I'm sure Dissident can confirm this. We're warring with him in a PBEM game and everything from tactics to strategy is on a completely different level.


I have learned a very powerful lesson from this PBEM game with Dissident(and Miccofl). It's all about the economy.

If you have a strong economy you can be outnumbered 3:1, you can be lagging 4 techs behind, you can fight on three fronts and you can still be on the road to victory.

	22-03-2003 03:21									#5
	Remove this text

quote: Eli wrote: If you have a strong economy you can be outnumbered 3:1, you can be lagging 4 techs behind, you can fight on three fronts and you can still be on the road to victory.

I agree. A strong economy is important to any game. You can do some short term things without a strong economy (e.g., early rush) but you will not make it for the long haul if you do not have a strong economy.

To me a strong economy means growth and production. We are last in population and production. We need to do something about it or we will have to become historians or wait to read Trip's chronicle to find out what happend in the game.

	22-03-2003 04:08									#6
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So our first strategic thing to do is to find a damn river!

	22-03-2003 09:32									#7
	Got spare money?

We found one.

	22-03-2003 13:38									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

But it SHOULD NOT be our first beach-head city on Bob.

	22-03-2003 19:42									#9
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No, it will be either the second or third. I was just happy that we found a source of irrigation.

	22-03-2003 19:56									#10
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I think it is somewhat difficult to try and pick or predict a victory situation at this point in time. I actually think we are in a pretty good position - regardless of the starting position and the current score.

If we can stay good friends with GS, we will not be on anybody's target screen. I think there will be a consensus as the game proceeds to bring down the stronger civs. I think NeuD will be the next target.

The trick is to make sure we are never the 'next target' of a coalition.

If we want medium term plans - I would offer these:

Plan A

step 1 - more growth
step 2 - alliance of RP, GoW and Vox against NeuD.
step3 - more growth
step 4 - we give up our NeuD land to GoW and RP in exchange for an alliance against GS. We claim all of Estonia.

Plan B

step 1 - more growth
step 2 - alliance of RP, GoW and Vox against NeuD.
step3 - more growth
step 4 - alliance with GS and one of RP or Gow against the other. We give up the land south of Elipolis to GS in exchange for a bigger chunk of Bob.

	22-03-2003 21:42									#11
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the two plans make sense

I am not sure which is better

Jon Miller

	22-03-2003 21:51									#12
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The nice thing about both plans is they both have the same first two steps. That will keep us busy for a while. Then we can see how things develop to decide which direction to go and which new opportunities arise.

	22-03-2003 22:23									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Yes. I like both plans. we will have to see how things develope before we decide which is better. however, in both we Attack ND. I like it.

	22-03-2003 22:49									#14
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assuming the game goes on that long- I have no reason to believe it won't, spaceship is our best chance. But so many things would have to go right. And we'd have to get great producing cities and pre-build as much as possible. Even then there is only a small chance of us getting a space ship out first, but it could happen.

the only other option is to build up a large military force and take as much land ass possible for domination. The main problem is having the military going obsolete. The modern era is probably our best shot for a domination victory.