16-04-2003 16:50									#31
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Wouldn't it create a problem when you've got a mountain range going accross a continent?

	16-04-2003 19:28									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Mizaq well, yeah, the upgrade cost would be staggering, but that is an idea. I like having moutains impassable by everything though. Makes chokeholds all the more important.

You can get into more strategy if at least some of your units can cross. And like Hazie said, it can be a problem if you have a huge mountain range in your way. If you allow roads, at least you can pass them eventually.

	16-04-2003 19:31									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Mizaq well, yeah, the upgrade cost would be staggering, but that is an idea. I like having moutains impassable by everything though. Makes chokeholds all the more important.

Not really, it's only 20 gold to upgrade a non-wheeled Worker to wheeled, without Leonardo's.

	18-04-2003 10:18									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Willem You can get into more strategy if at least some of your units can cross. And like Hazie said, it can be a problem if you have a huge mountain range in your way. If you allow roads, at least you can pass them eventually.

It's not a problem when you design your own maps. Plan accordingly.

Also, yeah the upgrade cost is probably dependent on the shield cost of the new worker. Too bad we can't make mountain ranges take more than one turn to travel one space. Darn engine limitations. Hopefully the next Civ game leaves us the ability to mod everything.

	18-04-2003 17:18									#35
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You could just increase the size of the mountain range.

	21-04-2003 00:27									#36
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You could also set "mountains" to be passable (roads allowed), and "snow-capped mountains" to be impassable (no roads allowed).

	21-04-2003 01:54									#37
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No you can't, the game doesn't make any distinction between the two. They're both just Mountains.

	21-04-2003 01:56									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Mizaq It's not a problem when you design your own maps. Plan accordingly.

Well I don't make my own maps so that's not an option.

	26-04-2003 11:35									#39
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back on the main subject though, how do I set it so there's no cities on the deserts or tundra? I'm really getting sick of having to build cities there just so the AI doesn't. the cities never preform as anything but territory boosters.

	26-04-2003 17:28									#40
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Go to the Terrain area in the editor. You'll see some flags there that allow you to make that choice. I forget now if that feature is availalbe in 1.29f though, it might be just a PTW thing.

	26-04-2003 20:06									#41
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If the Wheeled Worker and the normal Worker cost the same, there should be no upgrade cost.

Regarding the mountains, you would make all units wheeled, then make them only be impassible to wheeled (with the worker thing), and have one or two special units that aren't wheeled.

	26-04-2003 20:32									#42
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quote: Originally posted by skywalker Regarding the mountains, you would make all units wheeled, then make them only be impassible to wheeled (with the worker thing), and have one or two special units that aren't wheeled.

That's what I'm doing in my game, and I think it works great. I don't even allow my Workers and Settlers to cross those types of terrain until later, Engineering and Magnetism respectively. It turns the terrain into a strategic factor.

	26-04-2003 21:32									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Go to the Terrain area in the editor. You'll see some flags there that allow you to make that choice. I forget now if that feature is availalbe in 1.29f though, it might be just a PTW thing.

Ahh so its more involved than I thought darn.. I thought it was just a .txt file editing so I could just turn no deserts into the common rules of the game. I'm running 1.14 PTW so no problem there, but getting into the editor might be too much when I just like to play vanilla random maps.

	27-04-2003 02:10									#44
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quote: Originally posted by ghen Ahh so its more involved than I thought darn.. I thought it was just a .txt file editing so I could just turn no deserts into the common rules of the game. I'm running 1.14 PTW so no problem there, but getting into the editor might be too much when I just like to play vanilla random maps.

The editor is a breeze to work with, just open it up, go to Scenario, click Custom Rules. Then select Terrain from the pull down menu that you'll see to the left. Then all you have to do is check the approriate box for the terrain you want, close the screen and save it.

Just be sure to back up the original first, or save it seperately as a scenario, just in case something screws up. It has been known to happen. If you don't create a map, the game will make one up randomly as always using your now altered rules. Everything will be the same as it was except for what you've altered yourself.

	27-04-2003 22:40									#45
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Ok, thank you I'll try it tonight

	28-04-2003 21:02									#46
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You know, there have always been cites in the desert, it is just that they could never develope for obvious reasons. So I say we just make irrigation impossible on desert squars. If that is possible.

	28-04-2003 21:10									#47
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Yes it is, I've done it in my game. Myself I prefer the strategic element of not being able to build cities there. I have to place them around the desert carefully, and it sometimes provides a buffer from a neighbouring civ. I tend to try and build alot of culture producing buildings their, to try and control as much territory as possible, and the resources that are/may be in them.

	29-04-2003 01:06									#48
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the only reason I put cities on desert was to fill in border gaps or else the computer would slap one down to piss me off.. There's always been the ability to make cities on the desert squares unless you're talking IRL.

	03-05-2003 02:01									#49
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quote: (Re: Las Vegas is in a desert) Originally posted by Ozymandias Yes, thanks to intense diversion of water from every imaginable source of water within striking distance; and it and other SouthWest US conurbations are rapidly depleting the natural fresh-water infrastructure upon which they depend. -Oz

Yes, Los Angeles is a much bigger offender in this regard.

It is such a shame when localities depend on "growth" for their economies, even when it is not environmentally sustainable (I'm referring to Las Vegas here).

--
Back to the game: Another option to prohibiting cities in the desert is to give desert tiles NO shields.

	03-05-2003 02:04									#50
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Does that stop you from being able to build citys there?

	03-05-2003 03:23									#51
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It makes it unrealistic if you do, because the game can't simulate the negative effects.

	03-05-2003 04:43									#52
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I would also argue that the effects of flood plains are grossly overstated in the game, and that eliminating cities from (forgive me ) the lone and level sands is a fair trade-off.

... On the other hand, another approach entirely would be to simulate the major oases etc. upon which a desert city would depend by laying down a single tile-side of river in the middle of a desert, thereby creating two flood-plain tiles.

-Oz

	03-05-2003 15:26									#53
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The entire middle east is full of different flood plains in what would otherwise be desert.. its so bountiful that civilization began there, I think the flood plains are fine.


Anyway my current game came up dry and hot so there's lots of deserts around the world. perfect Now my cities are much more spread out and noone has stupid cities that only grow to size 2. There's even a few colonies for incense and barbarians still roaming in the industrial age Perfect!

	04-05-2003 09:29									#54
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quote: Originally posted by HazieDaVampire Does that stop you from being able to build citys there?

If you were questioning whether [Desert Shields = 0] prohibits building cities in the desert, no it does not. It DOES however, DISCOURAGE it (which is to my liking ). You can still mine the desert, but then it gives no food at all.

Living in the Vegas valley, I know of their being several (abondoned) mine shafts in the desert, but any productive mines are in the hills/mountains surrounding the valley.

	17-05-2003 04:14									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Willem No you can't, the game doesn't make any distinction between the two. They're both just Mountains.

Oops, Willem, you're right. My bad

	24-05-2003 18:47									#56
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What about increasing the amount of food consumed per citizen to 3? (It works in PTW but then you have a lot of ruins in the desert) I know that then cities cant grow as large (just increase amount of food provided by resources/non desert terrain). This also causes problems when a civs capital city is destroyed due to lack of food. Just an idea.

	24-05-2003 19:40									#57
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quote: Originally posted by xyrael This also causes problems when a civs capital city is destroyed due to lack of food.

You don't get cities being destroyed because of lack of food. The center square always provides enough for at least one citizen.

	25-05-2003 01:03									#58
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The mod that i got this idea from was the Medieval Europe Mod, a good mod, but in it each citizen eats four food, which causes most of the AI civs to die off since they dont focus on food. I decreased the food eaten per citizen to 3 and i still had a city destroy itself on a desert tile.

[edit: my cities only produced 2 food from the city tile]

Last edited by xyrael on 25-05-2003 at 11:41

	25-05-2003 13:13									#59
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quote: Originally posted by xyrael The mod that i got this idea from was the Medieval Europe Mod, a good mod, but in it each citizen eats four food, which causes most of the AI civs to die off since they dont focus on food. I decreased the food eaten per citizen to 3 and i still had a city destroy itself on a desert tile. [edit: my cities only produced 2 food from the city tile]

Then you need to get the latest patch for the game. As of 1.29f, I believe, the center square always produces enough food to support one citizen.

	28-05-2003 01:35									#60
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So, I recently whipped set up a scenario with desert and tundra unable to support cities. After playing it a few times (Monarch), I've discovered that it seems to make the AI insanely agressive. In each game, I've started on a continent with 5 other AI players, and as soon as a few of them get iron working, they all ally against me. This keeps happening. Is this a side-effect of the decreased useable lands?