22-03-2003 00:55									#1
	Spies: Useless or Indispensible? Support Apolyton

Does anyone have any ideas as to how spies can serve any strategic purpose whatsoever? I can't find any uses. To get maps, just trade with 'em. Propaganda missions are too risky. Military positions often don't help too much for a peaceful leader like myself. Investigating cities and stealing technology I can do through an embassy. Is there anything they can do?

	22-03-2003 01:04									#2
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Anything I want, I ask for.

If that doesn't work, I take it by force.

	22-03-2003 01:11									#3
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Yes, a valid strategy. But have you ever used spies in a game?

And by the way, is there a way to take tech through conquest (besides extorting it from your enemies during peace negotiations)? All I ever take is gold and workers.

	22-03-2003 01:16									#4
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There is no way to take tech by conquering a city, as you could in Civ2.

I've used espionage, but find that, for the most part, it is too cost prohibitive.

	22-03-2003 02:01									#5
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I often use that for stealing techs in late industrial/modern era: these techs usually cost more that 10k if I wanted to buy them -and only about 3k for a "safe" steal attempt...and this money does not go to my enemy and speed up his research.

	22-03-2003 02:47									#6
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I almost never use spies.

I occasionally actually research espionage & build the agency just so I can plant spies and see the enemy's order of battle on the F3 screen, but that's about it.

People have posted examples of using spies to sabotage SS production in a close space race or stealing a key tech for the same purpose, though. There have been several threads about espionage... you may want to run a search and have a look at some of the older threads.

Most of us don't use spies much. I think that's an accurate statement.

-Arrian

	22-03-2003 03:34									#7
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I do use spies but only for the F3 screen and to occasionally investigate a city in wartime.

I will only bother to investigate a city if I suspect a particularly strong defence but it is not something I do often.

For a peaceful player being able to see the F3 screen can be useful. If the Zulus on another continent threaten you or declare war but don't have any transports or warships then you know they aren't a threat. Apart from that sort of use I never bother with any of the espionage missions.

	22-03-2003 07:04									#8
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Ephesos...

Check out this thread I started, it might give you some answers.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80040

I too found that I really didn't know if the spies were worth the cost in the end. If you have any other questions just ask, the guys on this site know a lot and kick butt.

BigD

	22-03-2003 08:28									#9
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Thanks for the thread link.

	22-03-2003 08:34									#10
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Also you might want to consider implementing Player1's change;
making spies of all non-communist governments veterans and selecting elite for communist governments. Makes the chance of a succesful spy attempt much higher.

	22-03-2003 09:12									#11
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quote: making spies of all non-communist governments veterans and selecting elite for communist governments. Makes the chance of a succesful spy attempt much higher.

What do you mean by making spies elite and veteran? I thought spies weren't units in Civ III, like caravans. If this is something in the manual, I didn't find it.

Anyway, I always run short on cash after just one or two missions, and when I fail (quite often), it's always war or possibly worse (______ is displeased). Is there a way to cut costs and risks besides communism?

	22-03-2003 09:17									#12
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Oh yeah, thanks for the link. It really helps.

	22-03-2003 09:48									#13
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How do you effectively plant the damn things? Almost every time I try I get caught and then have to fight a war I don't want with some demented maniac who goes all out to kill me.

	22-03-2003 15:30									#14
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Pretty useless, with my playing style.

	22-03-2003 22:13									#15
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I generally only "use" them for the order of battle info on F3. Sometimes, during wartime, I might use them to investigate a few cities as potential targets. They are useful in those games (perhaps rare) when a reasonably close spacerace is underway.

I will almost never research Espionage but will trade for it (when the AI in quesiton doesn't have adequate more desireable assets), so my ability to plant spies from game to game varies considerably. And if I've played a largely peaceful game, I tend to only attempt spy planting during times of war. In not at war, I will only attemt to plant spies with the forewarning that I might start a war through the attempt.

Catt

	22-03-2003 23:00									#16
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Investigating a city you are about to assault can tell you what the defenses are and whether it has Civil Defense. The trick is to do it at the right time, not just BEFORE he adds/conscripts reinforcements. Or do it multiple times.

	23-03-2003 00:00									#17
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F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.

	23-03-2003 02:13									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.

I don't. Imagine if it did and took as long to scroll down as the F3 screen does.

	23-03-2003 03:44									#19
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quote: The trick is to do it at the right time, not just BEFORE he adds/conscripts reinforcements.

Your voice comes from experience?

	23-03-2003 04:51									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Tuomerehu Your voice comes from experience?

Absolutely!
I learned from that, though there are still times (too many, in fact) that I do not bother to Investigate City until AFTER my assault has failed.

	23-03-2003 04:58									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus F3, but I sure wish it included the "death tolls" from Civ2.

I quite agree. If not overall losses, at least a tally of those lost in the last (x) turns!
If I have a spy, I would much rather not have to (1) check F3 and take count of each significant # of troops, (2) sink the transport, (3) check F3 again and compare.

BTW Theseus, I recently did this and the single transport was fully loaded (guerillas, cavalry & infantry)!

	23-03-2003 05:29									#22
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Does anyone know if there is a way to make placing spies more likely to succeed?

	23-03-2003 05:40									#23
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Agathon, I am convinced that having higher culture helps. Whether relative spy 'experience' is a factor I'm not sure. If at first you don't succeed, just try again 4-5 turns later; I just had a game where it worked on my 3rd attempt. If you already have an embassy, you can still plant a spy after war is declared.

If you were asking about using the editor to make it more likely to succeed: No, only the 'Base Cost' can be adjusted.

	23-03-2003 06:58									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ephesos What do you mean by making spies elite and veteran? I thought spies weren't units in Civ III, like caravans. If this is something in the manual, I didn't find it. Anyway, I always run short on cash after just one or two missions, and when I fail (quite often), it's always war or possibly worse (______ is displeased). Is there a way to cut costs and risks besides communism?

Go to the "Governments" tab in the editor and change the "Spies Are" settings for each of the governments. (Player1's mod leaves the diplomats as they are standard)

This will change the difficulty of a succesful spy. Then to cut costs, change the base cost in the editor

	23-03-2003 07:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Agathon, I am convinced that having higher culture helps. Whether relative spy 'experience' is a factor I'm not sure. If at first you don't succeed, just try again 4-5 turns later; I just had a game where it worked on my 3rd attempt. If you already have an embassy, you can still plant a spy after war is declared. If you were asking about using the editor to make it more likely to succeed: No, only the 'Base Cost' can be adjusted.

Not about the editor. I usually play for culture but it doesn't seem to help me. I was only about 10 turns away from a cultural win and I still kept getting snapped. Mind you the fact that I ruled about 3/4 of the earths surface and owned two dozen nuclear weapons meant that this wasn't a big deal.

I uncheck the space race option so I never have to use them for that. All I use them for is to give me an idea of how many units the enemy has.

	23-03-2003 08:18									#26
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One question for 2manyusernames: I have the Mac version, version 1.16, and I don't have the editor. Is there another way to make spies "veteran"?

	23-03-2003 09:22									#27
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Ephesos, have you updated to 1.21g? Or are you using OS 9?

	23-03-2003 12:41									#28
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Ephesos, you can:
Go communist, not that it will ensure you success, but if you are a religious civ at least the cost isn't prohibitive since you can switch right back; or

With Mac OS X and version 1.21g you can download the Editor. See the Apolyton/Civ3/News, or the Civ3 Macintosh forum here or on CivFanatics.

You could also just keep on trying. Back in 1.16 I am pretty sure you could try every turn. On the current Windoze version (PTW??) if you fail then it won't do any good to try again for 3-4 turns. And YOU have to keep track, the game doesn't do it for you!

	23-03-2003 19:20									#29
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I do have OS X, so I'm not prohibitively behind you Windows people. I will make a note to get v. 1.21 and the editor. Thanks for the tip.

	23-03-2003 22:08									#30
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Two threads about exactly the same subject in the front page.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=80040