22-03-2003 12:35									#31
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It would last long enough for me, Che and a few like-minded souls to get some guns.

Remember that old quote about "selling you the noose to hang him with"?

	22-03-2003 13:20									#32
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3 weeks before the anarchy kicks in. Some queer twist of Mad Max and Red Khmers in Kambodzha.

quote: It would last long enough for me, Che and a few like-minded souls to get some guns.

The only sensible option in the situation.

quote: It would fall in two months into general anarchy. The lack of government will be almost immediately overwhelmed by the use of violence made by individuals / mobs. Its likely outcome would be a temporary form of feudalmism where strong mob leaders / warlords would hold power over a chunk of territory.

True.

quote: If the military doesn't coup then there would be generally anarchy... all the poor would start going crazy on each other and anyone... they would not be united enough to establish communism.

Still true.

	22-03-2003 13:23									#33
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I read something somewhere about a plan to move enough libertarians to Delaware so they could take control of the state. I would think if that were to happen it would be a few weeks before things fell into anarchy and disrepair.

	22-03-2003 15:48									#34
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Stefu - If I said that, wouldn't you quote me instead of hypothesing about what you think I might have said? Libertarianism won't exist as long as the majority rejects freedom. If the majority embraces freedom, then libertarianism will exist. That's true for any ideology, pretty simple...

Vader -

quote: Three little words: Articles of Confederation. Lasted a couple of years if I remember. Then the states realized they were powerless on their own...

You have that backward, it wasn't the states that decided they were powerless, it was the federalists who wanted a more powerful central government who decided the Congress didn't have enough power. The states had more power under the AoC than the Constitution...

The ignorance about libertarianism in this thread is so profound as to render it meaningless. Not one of you have correctly defined libertarianism and have trotted out the spector of anarchy (revealing an ignorance about that ideology as well) as a strawman. Congrats! You've created an argument to refute.

Since Ramo is the resident anarchist, maybe he can explain the differences. He'd certainly reject equating the ideologies too...

	22-03-2003 16:05									#35
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I have indded used the word "anarchy" in the bad sense, meaning a general disorder and violence with no superior authority to settle it down (through the use of its own violence, recognized by everyone as the only legitimate)
I indeed didn't use the word "anrchy" in the anarchists' meaning of a deliberate attempt from a society to free itself from domination by making it useless through a behavious change.

And if you care to explain me how a libertarian government deals efficiently with mass / organized crime and impoverished individuals pillaging goods, I'm ready to listen.

	22-03-2003 16:15									#36
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quote: The ignorance about libertarianism in this thread is so profound as to render it meaningless. Not one of you have correctly defined libertarianism and have trotted out the spector of anarchy (revealing an ignorance about that ideology as well) as a strawman. Congrats! You've created an argument to refute.

Personally, I know very well what Libertarianism is all about. I played devil's advocate, thus persuading people that they're not libertarians. And David Floyd gave me an A grade on this, this has to be worth something, right?

You seem to be a real libertarian. I think that the ideology of you and your pursuit is highly unethical, because my ethics are radically different that yours.

quote: And if you care to explain me how a libertarian government deals efficiently with mass / organized crime and impoverished individuals pillaging goods, I'm ready to listen.

a) since people will have guns, they'll be able to defend themselves. They'll be allowed to form self-defence groups, or contract the police corporation to do that for them.
b) this is besides the point. As long as the government is libertarian, it is the most moral, utilitarian consequences don't matter.

	22-03-2003 16:48									#37
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Someone with a unifying goal and vision for their nation would kill the Libertarianism.

	22-03-2003 17:38									#38
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so azazel, youre saying in a libertarian society its better to be right theoreticly than right in practice?

	22-03-2003 18:45									#39
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No. what I am saying that a libertarian government would rather allow higher crime than tax the income of its' citizens.

	23-03-2003 03:32									#40
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Spiffor -

quote: And if you care to explain me how a libertarian government deals efficiently with mass / organized crime and impoverished individuals pillaging goods, I'm ready to listen.

Through law enforcement just as now. A libertarian system would limit laws to actions that harm (or threaten to harm) others or their property via force or fraud, and eliminate the "red-distribution" of wealth. Being poor doesn't give me a special right to pillage the property of others...

Azazel -

quote: Personally, I know very well what Libertarianism is all about.

If you say so, but I haven't seen the proof.

quote: I played devil's advocate, thus persuading people that they're not libertarians. And David Floyd gave me an A grade on this, this has to be worth something, right?

I wouldn't know without seeing your attempts at persuasion.

quote: You seem to be a real libertarian. I think that the ideology of you and your pursuit is highly unethical, because my ethics are radically different that yours.

So you think freedom is unethical.

quote: No. what I am saying that a libertarian government would rather allow higher crime than tax the income of its' citizens.

That's pretty funny given that we have high taxes now and higher crime rates than when this country was more libertarian, i.e., fewer laws, no drug war, no "re-distribution" of wealth, and extremely low taxes with no income tax. The Declaration of Independence and Constitution are essentially libertarian documents excluding slavery of course.

You guys take the position that since the poor will pillage society, government should do the pillaging and hand the stolen goods to the poor as if the poor will stop their pillaging. Well, if the pillaging is undesirable in the former, why does it become desirable in the latter? Stange ethics you have there.

	23-03-2003 05:14									#41
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I said a week and anarchy. Indeed, the only way that it could ever thrive would be on a hostile\new enviornment, Mars being a good example. However, the same argument could be made for Communism and every other failed form of government that human nature just doesn't work out for.

The party platform was mostly... funny.

The Green party platform is a hoot. The Green part was only to lure unsuspecting enviornmentalists in becoming communist. My opinion is that a vote for a third party is not a wasted vote... but it seems you have to be careful on choosing the right third party.

But then, I suppose any liberal platform when it is spelled out succictly is recoginized as ludicrous. Its only through smoke and mirrors that today's liberalism has any credibility.

	23-03-2003 05:15									#42
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quote: Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.

This pretty much sums it up. Liberatarians as opposing the government's policys solely for the sake of opposing the government's policys.

	23-03-2003 06:20									#43
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Thud -

quote: This pretty much sums it up. Liberatarians as opposing the government's policys solely for the sake of opposing the government's policys.

What you quoted doesn't say the LP opposes every policy for the sake of opposing policies , it says the fact the LP platform does not address each and every law, etc, should not be construed as support for each and every law not addressed.
You derive amusement from what you cannot understand and I derive amusement from your confusion over something so simple to understand.

	23-03-2003 07:27									#44
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Well i think the main problem with any idea of a libertarian state (at least on this thread) is that both sides are dug in on their political opinions and wish death and mockery on those who dare differ.

As I take it (I a do have the naive opinion that deep down people can respcet each other) both sides of the arguement (capitalist libertarian and anarcho-communist) both agree that everybody mostly disagrees with their neighbour and the pnly way for a person truely be free is for the means of production to be in the hands of the individual (capitalist libertarian) or the means of production to be in the hands of the masses (or individual) as in the political ideal of communism or anarchy.

I maybe wrong but as nobody bothers answering a newbie then I am a "one trick pony"

So much for the democractic ideal of the internet.................

	23-03-2003 08:26									#45
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A libertarian society would end up with all the power in just a few people. (DUH!)

TAX THE RICH, YOU IDIOT, NOT THE POOR!!!



Libertarianism = Feudalism

	23-03-2003 08:49									#46
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quote: Someone with a unifying goal and vision for their nation would kill the Libertarianism.

2 weeks.
Non-specified revolt.
All you need is one man with a dream of a better society.

	23-03-2003 09:59									#47
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quote: TAX THE RICH, YOU IDIOT, NOT THE POOR!!!

Be honest, you'd tax the poor too. That's the difference between me and you leftists, I wouldn't tax the poor because the cost of government wouldn't require the vast amounts of money y'all need to pay for your policies; but you, the defenders of the little people, would tax them because there aren't enough rich people to tax to pay for all your guilt.

	23-03-2003 12:56									#48
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quote: Be honest, you'd tax the poor too. That's the difference between me and you leftists, I wouldn't tax the poor because the cost of government wouldn't require the vast amounts of money y'all need to pay for your policies; but you, the defenders of the little people, would tax them because there aren't enough rich people to tax to pay for all your guilt

France in the 18th century rocked, there was equal chance for everybody to be rich...

	23-03-2003 13:13									#49
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quote: The ignorance about libertarianism in this thread is so profound as to render it meaningless. Not one of you have correctly defined libertarianism and have trotted out the spector of anarchy (revealing an ignorance about that ideology as well) as a strawman. Congrats! You've created an argument to refute.

It isn't our job to define libertarianism. It is our place to comment on what we think would happen if libertarians tried, through enacted legislation in an existing and known society (the USofA), to get the non-libertarian majority to act like libertarians.

It would be overturned in the very next election, the way the Democrats were removed from power in the House in '94. However noble the ideals they would fail in terms of implementation.

After all, the ideals of the constitution itself have failed in implementation. I don't have the reference off the cuff, but one of the founding fathers said that it is better to have 10 guilty persons go free than to have 1 innocent person wrongly convicted. But in implementation the populace won't settle for that 10:1 ratio. Instead it has to be enforced through farcical interpretations of search and seizure limitations and other evidentiary protocols.

Law enforcement spends vast energies trying to work through and around the system, while defense attorneys basically subvert the limitations into injustice on demand (the best defense money can buy). I guarantee any of those founding fathers would vomit if they could see what goes on today in a court of "law."

Libertarians would only make the existing system worse. We'd get a flood of petty criminals released from prisons, sentences imposing restitutions that can't be met by shiftless thugs without the discipline to hold down a real job, bogus criminal complaints against "deep pocket" individuals and corporations, etc.

	24-03-2003 08:28									#50
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I agree with Speer. No communist revolution. The U.S. doesn't even really have a proletariat any more. There aren't many industrial workers left in the country. A libertarian regime would quickly lose control, chaos would break out in the inner cities, and a military coup would put the U.S. squarely with the side of the political spectrum that has the real power: the right.

	25-03-2003 02:25									#51
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It would be like Chile when they let Milton Freidman make the monetary policy. The effect on the economy will be disasterous. Then they will abandon their policies, and the economy will recover. Finally, they will use it as an example of their policies, claiming that it was their policies which created the economic growth.

	25-03-2003 02:53									#52
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Is there such a thing as a monetary policy ? I thought libertarian economists advocated the right to issue money to each individual / bank, and let the market decide what money is the most solid.

	25-03-2003 03:06									#53
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Spiffor:

I doubt that... that just sounds stupid and would be a blatant break from the constitution which only allows the federal gov't to coin money.

	25-03-2003 03:16									#54
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It doesn't sound stupid to those who developed the idea. And it respects completely the laws of the market, which is an absolute good for the Libertarians, if I understand correctly.

	25-03-2003 03:47									#55
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While I'm not terribly familiar with Libertarian philosophy, I have to agree that it is generally unworkable in the United States, if only because of the sheer numbers of enemies we've accumulated. The Libertarian government, assuming it doesn't immediately fall into mob rule and corporate exploitation, would attempt to disband the military (which would probably fail). Assuming they were successful, this would be seen as a profound sign of weakness abroad, probably resulting in some form of attack, that, with only a "militia" of sorts to defend the nation, would probably be quite successful.

That's just one scenario, which assumes that the government lasts that long.

	25-03-2003 03:48									#56
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Spiffor:

i'm not sure the market would work if there's a dozen different types of currency all with different values. there needs to be some sort of standardization. then again, the global economy is of dozens of different currencies so i dont know


thanks

	25-03-2003 03:50									#57
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AS :
I am absolutely not a Libertarian, so don't take my word as any informative. I think Berzerker or Floyd will dispel my crass ignorance next time they come here.

	25-03-2003 10:41									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Kirnwaffen The Libertarian government. . .would attempt to disband the military

While there may be a fringe group of libertarians who'd favor this, most of us believe that national defense is one of the few legitimate functions of government. We want a big enough military establishment to protect us from attack; we just don't want it to be so big that it can station hundreds of thousands of troops halfway around the world, mucking about in other countries' affairs.

	25-03-2003 17:55									#59
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I think you are talking about an extreme libertarian country. Such country wouldn't fall in anarchy, it would be anarchy from the begining. But if we consider a "soft" libertarian system (the one that limits the government as much as posible, but always keeping an eye in realism) this would work and be a very good system.

	25-03-2003 19:38									#60
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Berz: I was just explaining the supposed position of a libertarian government. The change of the crime level is a wholly different debate.

And no, I don't think that freedom is necessarily ethical. neither it is necessarily unethical. That's the whole point, freedom and ethics don't lie on a single scale for me. They do for you. Many of the actions you would condone I would be appalled by.

taxing is not pillaging. Taxation is using the resources of the community for the betterment of the entire community. I believe in public good. Libertarians do not, AFAIK.

and on the thread... it was deleted, apparently. an old thread.