22-03-2003 03:14									#1
	A protest in Austin, Texas... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here's a look at a street protest from closeby

quote: March 21, 2003 Protests the day after war starts In Austin, there were large protests at UT campus, which I missed, but I went down to the rally at the capitol which began at 4:30. Here's a long report. The crowd grew larger and larger. There was a drum circle and chants, with Congress Avenue blocked off to accomodate the thousands of people that gathered. A plane flew overhead with a banner reading "If thy enemy is hungry, feed him." (Then in a moment of supreme bathos and trivialization, another plane flew overhead with a banner showing the tacky Hooters logo.) Then there were songs performed (including a fun song about how the US flag decal on your car won't get you into heaven, and the hymn Study War No More which got quite a crowd sing-along). I heard Rahul Mahajan (local activist, author and recent Green party governor candidate) for the first time and found him to be a good intelligent speaker. And various other good speeches. Around 5:30 or so we began to march down Congress toward the river. I was with several friends (Gaul, Shy, Jeremy) and the energy in the crowd was amazing as we went down Congress (which police had blocked off for the march). There were lots of creative signs and chants and music, of course. It was a really large number of people (I'd guess 3000 to 5000), more than I expected for a weekday afternoon event. Since a lot of people had jobs keeping them from showing up, the crowd was younger than the recent weekend protests, but there were still a lot of older and "establishment" people. (I liked one businessman in a suit and tie who held a sign saying "Suits for peace".) Anyway, so far it felt similar to other recent antiwar marches, except a greater sense of urgency and frustration since the war has now begun. However after a while on the bridge, police started approaching to say we needed to get off the street soon. Some experienced activists were negotiating with police and keeping the crowd apprised of what was going on. They explained that in a little while, the police would arrest people on the street, and you should get on the sidewalk if you didn't want to be arrested. There were 20 or 30 cops on motorcycles and disembarked from cars at this point. Gaul and I both decided to get on the sidewalk with most of the remaining crowd (which I estimate was around 1000 to 1500). Civil disobedience is a murky issue indeed, and the police had been gracious enough to block off Congress for the march for a couple hours. On the other hand, the inconvenience of having the bridge blocked seems small given the strong feelings of the large crowd gathered to make a statement and oppose an unjust aggressive "pre-emptive" war which will cost many lives and billions of dollars that could be better spent. So I respect and admire those who chose to be arrested in protest of the war. It's murky. So a lot of us stood on the sidewalk watching and those who chose to do civil disobedience stayed on the street — it was still peaceful. Lots of chanting, drumming, etc., but at no time did I see anyone in the crowd commit violence or vandalism. We could see police and activists negotiating and talking about how folks on the street willing to be arrested for civil disobedience would not resist and would have ID handy etc. I thought this should go smoothly and simply. I've seen this sort of thing in the past. The police would process the folks in the street and take them to jail peacefully, no big deal. But instead we watched as a surreal miniature police state experience unfolded. The police bungled and escalated the situation. For some reason the police changed their minds and a large contingent in riot gear showed up. The police then said we had to leave the sidewalks. Now we began to be nervous that they didn't want us close by to see the handling of the people being arrested. They said we could go north (back toward the capitol where most of us came from) or south. Then a while later they said no, we have to south; we can't go north. Since most people's cars, offices, etc were north, this foolishly ensured that many people would not disperse, but would hang around till the end so they could get back home more easily. They then began advancing on us. You see it on tv and in movies, but it's still very strange in real life to see a line of about 30 cops in black riot gear with visors and big white sticks advancing at you, spanning the width of the bridge. Gaul and I were both boggled that riot gear cops were telling us we couldn't stand on a public sidewalk and would be arrested if we didn't move it. Since this was a large crowd on the sidewalk (and trying not to step into the street lest we be arrested for being in the street) and people in back couldn't hear what was being said anyway, the crowd moved very slowly. Gaul and I were at the front where the cops were ordering us to move. I got nervous as a cop directly ordered me to move south off the bridge. There was a wall of people in front of me -- he shoved me into them. I couldn't move south. He kept telling me to move south. I said "How? There's people right here! Where do I go?" He said "Just go. You can't stay on the sidewalk. Move." My emotions were moving from bogglement to angry indignation at this idiocy, and I stepped over the guardrail to the other side and said "There. This is the only place I can move to." He said "That's not going to cut it." So I stepped back into the crowd and we slowly percolated down the bridge while several cops shoved me and others in the back repeatedly with their white sticks, not enough to cause me injury, but unjustifiably forcefully. Suddenly about 6 feet in front of me people began screaming "Stop! There's a bike! People are falling!" The cops kept pushing, but a little slower. People were getting tripped up and falling on a bicycle. An elderly woman next to me turned back to talk to the cops and they just pushed her back. Many people were getting understandably angry and shouting "Shame! Shame!" and "What kind of America is this?" and such. Around now we noticed our eyes and noses stinging and a strange smell. Several people saw cops spraying something (pepper spray or mace I assume). People really got angry now and shouted things like "You're using chemical weapons against your own people!" I began shouting "No chemical weapons!" and the crowd took up that chant for a while. Once we were 30 or 40 meters south of where we'd been, they stopped pushing us. We could see the crowd of civil disobedient people in the street back in the middle of the bridge getting arrested now. So the cops did indeed want to wait till were far away before they started arresting them. It was hard to tell, but I'd guess 30 or 40 people were arrested. The cops in riot gear near us just stood there. Gaul observed most of them either looked stonily ahead like robots avoiding eye contact, or else looked nervously scanning back and forth over the crowd. A few people tried to talk reasonably with them usually without much response. A few people shouted hostile stuff (which I think is counter productive; it just lets the cops feel justified in manhandling troublesome *******s, instead of forcing them to realize they are manhandling ordinary peaceful civil citizens, as most of the crowd was.) A common chant in the past has been "This is what democracy looks like!" After the riot gear cops began their action, a variation started: "This is what a police state looks like!" A few times also the Star Wars Imperial March (Darth Vader music) got chanted, which was pretty appropriate and welcome comic relief. We were then ordered off the sidewalk again, which boggled us further since the situation had obviously wound down. At this point we were near the base of the bridge and stepped over the guardrail on the grass. Gaul and I began riffing on Martin Niemöller's famous text: "First they came for the street people; then they came for the sidewalk people; then they came for the people on the other side of the rail..." The whole situation was simultaneously infuriating and surreally comic. Some upscale looking people in snazzy evening dress came walking down the bridge from downtown, looking puzzled what was going on. We told them "You better get off the sidewalk or they'll arrest you!" They said the cops at the north end were polite and said they could cross the bridge. After we told them what happened to us, they crossed the rail and walked on the grass. Except one of them went to talk to a cop on the street at the end of a row of a dozen cops on motorcyles. Interestingly, the cop was civil and polite to him instead of ordering him off the street and sidewalk. After the crowds ultimately dispersed and the cops began dispersing, we began to walk north and cross back to downtown. There were lots of cops with their helmets off now, talking with each other and studiously ignoring us. I saw several of them handling shotguns and putting them away in cars. We kept wanting to talk to them and ask why this had justified riot control treatment when no one was acting violently, and why it was illegal to stand on a public sidewalk, and what did they think about all this, etc. But we felt afraid to, for fear of being arrested for hassling a cop or who knows what. It's really sad to feel afraid to even talk with another person due to their having a position of abusable power over you. And that lack of human connection just helps reinforce the antagonism and makes it easier for cops to dissociate and not recognize that we were real people peacefully gathered to protest the war, and that we could probably have pleasant conversation and be friendly. I felt like riot gear was used unnecessarily just to discredit the peace protests and make it look like we were troublemakers. I've done several peace marches lately, and they've all felt good and useful and important, but this one felt way more important. This felt like history being made in a darker way. At previous rallies, cops were friendly and helpful. Not this time. Now that we're actually at war, the authorities are being less tolerant of protests. There's this ridiculous magic aura of "you have to support the president in wartime and can't question the government" (even though the president started the damn war; it's not like we were attacked). I encourage everyone opposed to the war to go to the next peace rally in your city. It's important — even if Bush won't listen, we can at least show the rest of the world that not all Americans support the attack. And it's an empowering experience to be amid so many other pro-peace folks. (And if you're afraid of directly encountering police, it's easy to stay further back in the crowd if you want.

Source:
http://russcon.org/blog/archives/000017.html#more

	22-03-2003 03:25									#2
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It's good to know there are a few Texans with some sense.

	22-03-2003 03:26									#3
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quote: Ingredients - 1 SPAM® Classic (12-ounce) can cubed - 1 onion chopped - 1 (16-ounce) bag frozen mixed vegetables thawed drained - 2 (10- 3/4-ounce) cans cream of potato soup - 3 cups prepared instant mashed potatoes - 1 (3-ounce) package chives and onion cream cheese softened - 1/4 cup grated parmesan cheese Country SPAM Casserole Prep Time: 15 minutes Cook Time: 30 minutes Directions Heat oven to 400°F. In skillet over medium-high heat, saute SPAM® and onion until browned. In bowl, combine vegetables, SPAM™ mixture, and soup. Spoon into 3-quart casserole dish. In bowl, combine mashed potatoes and cream cheese. Spread over SPAM™ mixture. Sprinkle with parmesan cheese. Bake 25 to 30 minutes or until hot and bubbly

	22-03-2003 03:26									#4
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider It's good to know there are a few Texans with some sense.

I second that. Glad to see the younger generations of Texans are progressing.

	22-03-2003 03:38									#5
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I present to you David Floyd as a counterarguement.

	22-03-2003 03:41									#6
	Remove this text

:

	22-03-2003 03:48									#7
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*blows smoke of the barrel of his 6-shooter*.

Floyd is my secret weapon.

	22-03-2003 03:57									#8
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16 May, 1918
The U.S. Sedition Act

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
United States, Statutes at Large, Washington, D.C., 1918, Vol. XL, pp 553 ff.
A portion of the amendment to Section 3 of the Espionage Act of June 15, 1917.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

SECTION 3. Whoever, when the United States is at war, shall willfully make or convey false reports or false statements with intent to interfere with the operation or success of the military or naval forces of the United States, or to promote the success of its enemies, or shall willfully make or convey false reports, or false statements, . . . or incite insubordination, disloyalty, mutiny, or refusal of duty, in the military or naval forces of the United States, or shall willfully obstruct . . . the recruiting or enlistment service of the United States, or . . . shall willfully utter, print, write, or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous, or abusive language about the form of government of the United States, or the Constitution of the United States, or the military or naval forces of the United States . . . or shall willfully display the flag of any foreign enemy, or shall willfully . . . urge, incite, or advocate any curtailment of production . . . or advocate, teach, defend, or suggest the doing of any of the acts or things in this section enumerated and whoever shall by word or act support or favor the cause of any country with which the United States is at war or by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both....

	22-03-2003 05:54									#9
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--"In Austin, there were large protests at UT campus"

Can't say this one surprises me. I've been to UT Austin...

--"Then there were songs performed"

Ahem. Tom Lehrer said it best.

quote: We are the Folk Song Army Everyone of us cares We all hate poverty, war and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares There are lots of innocuous folk songs Yeah, but we regard 'em with scorn The folks who sing 'em have no social conscience Why they don't even care if Jimmy crack corn If you feel dissatisfaction Strum your frustrations away Some people may prefer action But give me a folk song any old day The tune doesn't have to be clever And it don't matter if you put a couple-a extra syllables into a line It sounds more ethnic if it ain't good English And it don't even gotta rhyme - excuse me - rhyne Remember the war against Franco That's the kind where each of us belongs Though he may have won all the battles We had all the good songs So join in the Folk Song Army Guitars are the weapons we bring To the fight against poverty, war, and injustice Ready, aim, sing!

--"On the other hand, the inconvenience of having the bridge blocked seems small "

That's because they weren't trying to get anywhere. Protest all you want, but standing in front of SUVs at rush hour seems like a good way to get in the running to win a Darwin Award.

Wraith
"Any idiot can face a crisis; it is this day- to-day living that wears you out."
-- Chekhov

	22-03-2003 06:05									#10
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Verto :
Since you thank the army which "protects your freedom", I suppose that you do not associate with the text you posted. For such a text basically forbids any opposition to the government, which is absolutely indignant for the Land of the Free.

quote: Whoever shall [...] by word or act oppose the cause of the United States therein, shall be punished by a fine of not more than $10,000 or imprisonment for not more than twenty years, or both....

	22-03-2003 06:09									#11
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I am, actually, against the Sedition Act. I understand the reasoning behind it, and can see why it would be put forth, but oppose it nevertheless. My purpose for posting it was simply to show that what many are doing could result in the above punishments.

	22-03-2003 06:14									#12
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Have there been occurences of the sedition act being enforced since Vietnam ? It doesn't really look like the "sedition" in the US today can hurt the war machine. I suppoe the Bushies will avoid the terrible PR that would bring the imprisonment of anti-war protestors. The benefits don't warrant the cost.

	22-03-2003 06:47									#13
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Yes, I doubt it would be enforced except in severe situations.

	22-03-2003 06:54									#14
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While AG, Bobby Kennedy moved to expand the powers of the Sedition Act in 1963, and the House voted in favor of it. But I don't think it has been used lately.

It was used by the fanatic AG A. Mitchell Palmer to imprison communist presidential candidate Eugene Debs in 1920 (he served three years of a ten year sentence before being pardoned), as well as over 4,000 alleged radicals. One of the sadest moments in American history, to be sure.

	22-03-2003 12:32									#15
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The Sedition Act of 1918 was repealed in 1921, shortly after it achieved its purpose with the Palmer Raids. The Espionage Act of 1917 is still on the books in case of "national emergency," but AFAIK hasn't been used since WWI, so basically it's irrelevent.

As far as federal laws go, the primarly one to worry about right now is the Patriot Act. And the Patriot Act, as bad as it is, doesn't condone the imprisonment of citizens for sedition.

	22-03-2003 12:36									#16
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I miss the sedition act already

	22-03-2003 12:38									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Have there been occurences of the sedition act being enforced since Vietnam ? It doesn't really look like the "sedition" in the US today can hurt the war machine. I suppoe the Bushies will avoid the terrible PR that would bring the imprisonment of anti-war protestors. The benefits don't warrant the cost.

It was repealed not too long after being passed...

EDIT: already answered, i see

	22-03-2003 12:45									#18
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Austin is a cool city About an hour from here, i have family that lives there and there is a possibility I may be attending UT next year.

Do to its large student population (UT is the largest university campus, with somewhere around 60,000 students, IIRC) and other factors too, Austin has a significant liberal population, so it is one of the few places in the otherwise conservative Texas state where significant protests such as this has taken place.

I didnt read the whole article, but if protests obstruct the peace, law, and order (ie traffic), then they should be broken up. Protesting is great, the backbone of democracy, but only if it is undercontrol.

	22-03-2003 12:54									#19
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quote: It's good to know there are a few Texans with some sense.

Yeah, they just happen to be in the White House .

	22-03-2003 13:24									#20
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don't you guys realize they are only doing it for the attention?

Why were they not protesting the conditions in Iraq the past 15 years?

where were they?

I know. They were self absorbed in their own little world.

These people don't care about the Iraqi people at all.

Posted from the other thread:

I have come to some conclusions. I am sure to offend people.

I believe anti-war protestors are selfish *******s who only care about themselves and their own circle of friends and family. They have no regards whatsoever for other people.

These same people should have been protesting the conditions in Iraq for the past 15 years. Why haven't they? Do they not care that we are helping Iraqis? And that by going to war with Iraq we are actually saving civilian lives. Do they not care about the Iraqis cheering in the towns we have taken. No, they only care about them and getting media attention.

I have come to the conclusion that war protestors are attention whores. They can care less about other people throughout the world. They only want attention. What's even worse is they are not emotional and mentally mature. When they were cuffed in San Francisco they were thrashing their bodies about like little toddlers. They were essentually throwing a temper tantrum. They made complete asses of themselvs. I used to respect anti-war protestors, but no more. I realize them for the idiots they are. They are nothing more than petty anarchists and attention whores.

I also think that a fair number them are equivalent to forum trolls. I have determined this by the stupid statements they have made. They seem to hate america no matter what good we do. They say that america deserved the 9/11 attacks and that our attacks on hirsoshima and nagasaki are the reason the WTC was attacked. To them every nation in the world is always right, and the U.S. is always wrong. And then this stupid broad said why don't we invade Tibet then? She doesn't realize that would start the third world war, and we'd get our asses kicked. We also don't invade North Korea because we'd get our asses kicked. We would have got our asses kicked in Africa as well, because we do have not support bases out there. We can only help were we are able unfortunately. We are not strong enough as a nation to be able to help every country in the world. We only help were we can, and Iraq is one of those.

I know I have said in the past that liberals are trolls (that thread was deleted). I am wrong about that. I realize that many liberals are for this war. So I apoligize for that. Phil Hendrie said he was a liberal tonight, but he supports the war. So I am wrong about liberals. But I do realize that war protestors are trolls.

So what's the best thing to do to trolls? Ignore them.

So I am now ignoring all protestors. I wish the media would do so also. I can gurantee you that if there were no media coverage, there would be no protestors. You ever notice how the protests have escalated with the advent of television/movie cameras and such?

So I am no longer protesting the protesters. I am ignoring them as the trolls they are.

	22-03-2003 13:27									#21
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and these *******s are diverting police resources when the police are supposed to be on the lookout for terrorist attacks.

I think that they want another terrorist attack to happen so they can blame Bush.

	22-03-2003 13:28									#22
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heh, trying to make sure everyone reads that post, diss?

	22-03-2003 13:29									#23
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edit: I messed that one up.

	22-03-2003 13:31									#24
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and I read most of that post. It's the same anti-war drivel.

What they don't realize is there are people in the world that want every single american dead. They aren't going to see an anti-war guy and spare their life. They want everyone dead. Their stupid views will not save them from a terrorist attack.

	22-03-2003 14:04									#25
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There is no Iraq-al-Qaeda connection. Same old pro-war drivel obfuscating the issues.

	22-03-2003 14:06									#26
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Are you denying an Iraqi-Hamas connection, Ramo?

	22-03-2003 14:16									#27
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Are you saying that Hamas is trying to kill every single American?

	22-03-2003 14:18									#28
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Are you saying Al-Queda is trying to kill EVERY single American? (Please don't say yes... even after your 'prision' debacle, there still might be hope for you ).

And are you denying a Al-Queda-Hamas connection? Because there is significant overlap, even though one is more secular than the other.

	22-03-2003 14:21									#29
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No, but that's what Dissident was trying to say:
"What they don't realize is there are people in the world that want every single american dead."

	22-03-2003 14:37									#30
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yes, I didn't say which people.

Iraq isn't in that group. I already illustrated my reasons for going into Iraq above.

In fact I shouldn't have made that post, it doesn't relate to this thread directly.