22-03-2003 09:39									#1
	Estonia city sites Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I am sending a pic of Estonia with city sites marked for discussion.
The sites are positioned differently than the previous plan was done
over a month ago. There has been some significant changes since
then and only half the current membership was around for the
previous discussion. So I figured this is a good time to go over
city sites again.

I had two goals in selecting these city sites:
1. Make use of every land tile available.
2. Give each city about 8 land tiles.
3. Provide for each city to have 12 workable tiles to maximize the benefit of improvements.

Each city site (except the current location of Miller Town) could
build a harbor and use coast tiles to get its population up to 12.
There are some unused coast tiles. I did not try to use them all
because there is no production from them.

I selected the location of site 5 to maximize the chance of being
able to build the Iron Works. Moving the site south one tile would
increase the chance a little more but it would landlocked the city and
limit the number of tiles it could use. Adding a city on the grassland
SE of the colony would allow us to make use of more coast but the
city would have only a few land tiles so its production would be small.

The most controversial part of these sites is the movement of existing
cities. The Voice needs to move to take better advantage of the fish
tile and there is a lot of coast in the area we can not currently use.
Another advantage of moving The Voice is we would get a free
palace move. If we do it right we could get the palace to move to
Elipolis which would centrally locate it within our portion of Estonia.
The Forbidden Palace could be built on Bob.

Moving Miller Town is not as important though the new location would
open up more usable coast tiles and it would allow us to make better
use of the food resources around The Voice. The pink line shows the
adjustments if we move Miller Town.

We do not need to move the cities right away but we do need to make
a decision. We don't want to build more improvements in these cities
if we will move them later.

	22-03-2003 21:19									#2
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Good discussion thread Harry.

North Estonia

I recommend #2 be on the hill to the SE. Same principles as you hae described applied, but we will be adding one more two food tile to the equation - (once irrigated of course). A hill tile will never produce two food unless the cityu is built there.

#3 - we could move it to the hill - but then we need to ensure we can still split the tiles up OK. keep in mind that cities are fairly felixible in using tiles 3 tiles away. We can mix and match as need be. The key to this city is getting a culture boosting build into it to expand the borders and get the use of the whale tiles.

I agree with you about harbors.

I do not recommend moving the Voice off the lake. We are using the fish tile now - on an as needed basis depending whether we want to boost gold or shield production (in other words - If I only need 5 shields to finish a build, and the Voice is producing 6 or 7, I swith the citizen over to the fish tile - teo food - two gold - for a turn to maximize output. Depending on the next build, I will probably switch it back again next turn).

Besides - being on the lake saves us from having to build an aqueduct - and we would lose the culture points built up from the early temple build - which I admit - was ill advised. But it is built now. Same applies to Miller Town. It can grow up to size 12 no problem.

As to a palace move - that depends on our longer term strategy - if we want to expand more on Bob with GS' help - my plan B I think - then we may as well leave it where it is.

I have no problem with cities being close together - tile useage ends up being pretty much the same.

As to South estonia - again - depends on our strategic plan. If we are going to stay settled here - Then I would rolll in another city or two. And we may want to keep #5 on its original location to better define the border - and ensure we claim the tiles which are ours.

But South Estonia can wait - I would agree that the priorities should be:

1. Bob
2. the two cities in North Estonia
3. South Estonia.

	22-03-2003 22:32									#3
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I agree with Beta on our priorities.

	23-03-2003 03:01									#4
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i might not like the placement of our cities but I hate even more the destruction of cities, especially ones that have been in production so long.

	23-03-2003 04:14									#5
	Remove this text

quote: I recommend #2 be on the hill to the SE. Same principles as you hae described applied, but we will be adding one more two food tile to the equation - (once irrigated of course). A hill tile will never produce two food unless the cityu is built there.

There are times when you want that extra production from a tile. A mined hill provides more production and a mined plain. Once we get railroads the extra food from an irrigated tile will allow us to mine some of the plains to increase production further. We will not need the extra food from the city on the hill.

quote: #3 - we could move it to the hill - but then we need to ensure we can still split the tiles up OK. keep in mind that cities are fairly felixible in using tiles 3 tiles away. We can mix and match as need be. The key to this city is getting a culture boosting build into it to expand the borders and get the use of the whale tiles.

You trade one whale tile for another. Same reasoning as above about production from the hill. This site has the fewest land tiles available so the production from the hill is needed even more. The extra food from the whale tile will support the laborer on the hill.

quote: I do not recommend moving the Voice off the lake. We are using the fish tile now.

We would get even more out of the fish, and the other coast tiles, if Voice could build a harbor.

quote: Besides - being on the lake saves us from having to build an aqueduct - and we would lose the culture points built up from the early temple build - which I admit - was ill advised. But it is built now. Same applies to Miller Town. It can grow up to size 12 no problem.

The new location of Miller Town would still be on the lake. A correctly planned free palace move would more than make up for the facilities already in these two cities. You do not lose culture points when you abandon a city. All you lose is the 1000 year benefit to future accumulation, since improvements in the new city would be much younger.

The problem with the existing locations is that they can not all have 12 workable tiles without making some other city nearly worthless in production. There are a lot of coast tiles in the area that we can not use. The additional of a half dozen (or more) workable coast tiles will more than make up for the maintenance coast of one aqueduct.

The Voice has a lot of extra food tiles. More than it really needs. By moving Miller Town it will be able to take advantage of two game instead of one allowing more tiles to be mined for increased production.

quote: But South Estonia can wait - I would agree that the priorities should be: 1. Bob 2. the two cities in North Estonia 3. South Estonia.

Agreed.

	23-03-2003 04:16									#6
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quote: i might not like the placement of our cities but I hate even more the destruction of cities, especially ones that have been in production so long.

We will get even more out of them after the move.

	24-03-2003 01:34									#7
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I am sending a pic of north Estonia with an alternate proposal for city locations. People didn't like my idea of moving cities so this proposal leaves Miller Town and Voice where they are, but I would like to leave our options open for moving Voice.

All of the cities in this proposal can reach size 12 while using all available land and cost tiles. Only two sea tiles are used and one with a whale. In this configuration there will not be any benefit of building hospitals as the most any city could do is add a couple of coast or sea tiles.

In its current location Voice will need irrigation to reach size 12. This is due to having three coast tiles without being able to build a harbor. (That is one of the nice things about CTP, they allowed you to build coastal improvements if there was a coast tile anywhere in the cities radius.) That is why I would like to keep our options open with Voice. Whether we settle Bob or all of Estonia I think there is a good chance we will want to move the palace. A free palace move saves a LOT of shields. In the mean time, we need workers and settlers. Voice can be our farm for those. Its population will remain small so there is little benefit in building improvements. If we get to the point of not settling anymore and we have no need for a palace move, then Voice can grow and build improvements.

We should let Miller Town grow. It has a barracks so it is a good place to produce veteran units. Soon we will be able to build cathedrals so Miller Town can support a larger working population. When Miller Town is not producing units it should work on improvements. The larger the city grows the more valuable those improvements will be.

Sites 2 and 3 are positioned on the plains to allow the hill to be mined for maximum production. This was an easy choice with site 3. With 2 extra food from the city and one more from the whale (once a harbor is built) it will have +3 food to support some mined tiles for increased production. Even in site 2 with +2 food from the city it could support the mined hill. There will be times when you want increased production and will move the laborers around to get it. We will be a Republic soon so the hill
will provide 3 shields compared to 2 for a mined plains.

Wittlich City, Elipolis, and sites 2 and 3 will all need to build harbors and aqueducts to reach size 12.

If we settle Bob the cities there should come first, otherwise site 3 should be the next city in north Estonia. Site 3 can take advantage of some of the already irrigated plains and it will have the whale once its borders expand.