24-03-2003 06:56									#31
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I'd rather secure the iron and wait a bit for Republic.

Yes, I hate building towns next to mountains, and yes, it is at risk from a Vox betrayal...

But the Voxid... (OH NO, can;t say it ), harrumph, our kindly Voxian neighbors have left an opening through the jungle. Sooo, we just need to present the appropriate military posture to ENSURE that no betrayal takes place.

I am very interested, btw, in the answer to Nathan's question re corruption.

	24-03-2003 07:00									#32
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Remaining cost is somewhere in the 253-255 beakers range. We're currently generating 47 commerce per turn at 100% science, and should go up one when we found our new city this turn. Republic is predicted in six turns on the lower right part of the screen.

	24-03-2003 07:04									#33
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It looks like the 2 cities it bumps down would be Spinebreaker and Tornado. In a Republic, Tornado would have 3% more corruption (21 vs 24), and Spinebreaker also 3% (29 vs 32).

Actually, it looks like either desert site beats out Spinebreaker, so it's corruption is unaffected. At 20 shields per turn (the target), Tornado's production is unaffected, 5 of 20 shields wasted. We would lose an extra commerce, which isn't a big deal because we should gain it in the desert city.

All this is based off Alexman's corruption calculator, so blame him if it's off! All the numbers look right for our GA though.

	24-03-2003 07:17									#34
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4 turns?

I guess we can live with that.

When will we be getting some boats? What are our priorities for them?

	24-03-2003 07:17									#35
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253/48 = 5.270833 = 13 commerce to make the jump
255/48 = 5.3125 = 15 commerce to make the jump

The desert city can get us 6 of that in the 3 turns it would be founded before Republic hits. We'd need to up our commerce about 2 (1.2 - 1.5) per turn in the next 6 turns otherwise. Will growth cover that?

	24-03-2003 07:26									#36
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Here was the city placement you asked for NYE. The discussion on it can be found at the end of the Spartan Academy thread. [Edit from Nathan: Note that we're now thinking in terms of probably building the desert city at the point Aeson has marked as road C rather than in Aeson's original location. Also, Aeson left off our northeastern city from the border treaty, but we're planning to add it back.]

quote: Here is a general rundown. Cities: (general order of founding can vary) 1. Looking at it again, I would actually swap 5 and 1 in the city build order. This site would be settled by Settler2 from Cyclone. 2. I agree with DeepO, that this should be moved 7. This would be a good canidate for a cultural improvement to grab the Whale and Furs. Opening up another tile to use will overcome the initial -1 commerce by this move. Settler1 from Cyclone. 3. This is a consolidated desert setup, which I think is more in our interest. The northern desert city as previously planned would make defending the Spinebreaker area more costly, requiring us to hold 2 mountain tiles instead of just one (marked X). The fewer cities in this area should help our eventual cities up in the Jungle are be more productive without sacrificing the use of valuable tiles. WC's from X can cover the approach to this city site. F. This would be a fortress type city, and facilitates a quick temporary passage E-W until the road at X is eventually put in place. Eventually we would probably move this city, but in the meantime it can help with the worker load and opens up more Grassland to be used by 6 initially. Settler2 from EotC. 5. As noted above, this should be swapped with 1. This will delay the city being built 1 turn, but the extra food from the start will more than overcome that. Settler1 from EotC 6. Moving this city back away from the Mountains makes it much more defendable. We don't have to have the Iron, but a Temple is in order here to allow the use of the Whale. This, along with the consolidation in the Desert, should cut the number of Spears we need for the same relative safety. WC's from X (F until the road is built) would be able to attack any unit moving down into the flat next to the city, and still have movement left to fall back after the attack. 7. This city was as far north as I figured on for now. The city planned north would be better suited in the Forest between the mountains, but that would only be available after our treaty with Vox is over with. Just where to found cities past this point would rely heavily on how our relations with Vox are at the time. This is a prime canidate for a Temple. We should ask Vox for possession of the Mountain 8,8. 8 and 9. Both these cities could wait to be founded until after the Jungle was Settled if it comes to that. Both will have access to a Plains tile, but 8's would be irrigated first. A Temple in Tempest can claim the Incence in the meantime. A Temple there is a good idea anyways as it will likely turn out to be our Middle Age wonder city.

	24-03-2003 07:32									#37
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Actually, figure five net gold from the desert city because if it works a roaded river flood plains, it has to rob the tile from another city on the fifth turn. (Although it might come out six due to corruption.) I'm not finding enough extra commerce that I'm willing to count on after corruption to do the job unless we go ahead and add the worker by Hurricane to that city (moving across the river this turn and joining the city next turn). If it weren't for the fact that we're committed to trade away Republic as soon as we get it, I'd figure we're best off speeding it along. As it is, I'm less sure, although we're probably better equipped than most civs to take advantage of the extra-food aspect. (And it would put us a few shields closer to the Pyramids.)

Last edited by nbarclay on 24-03-2003 at 07:38

	24-03-2003 07:37									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Lego might be a problem though.

Lego still has to go into anarchy, which buys us another 3 turns.

	24-03-2003 07:43									#39
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Our Worker in the area can road another FP tile before turn 5.

If Lego is alright with getting Republic on turn 85 then we could back off research a bit and get ~30 extra cash.

	24-03-2003 07:47									#40
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As I see it, we have three possibilities:

1) Build the desert city, add a worker to Hurricane, and be all but guaranteed Republic a turn earlier.

2) Build the iron city, add a worker to Hurricane, and probably get Republic a turn earlier if and only if we don't lose one of the extra gold from Hurricane's larger size to corruption.

3) Build the iron city, don't add a worker to Hurricane yet, and get Republic in six turns as per the current schedule.

By the way, if we build the desert city now, we could have Tempest's new worker move 6-6 to start improving an extra flood plains for the city immediately.

	24-03-2003 07:58									#41
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If we start building a road to the Iron city site now, we cut off a turn of the delay in getting it founded. We can have the roads for Cyclone's Settler ready if Tempest's new Worker starts that, and it cuts the travel time of the Settler from 5 to 4 turns. In that case, the Worker by Arashi can have the road and 1 turn of Irrigation ready by the time the tile is needed. We don't lose anything as 20 food in 7 turns is just as good as 21.

The roads can't be ready in time to help EotS' Settler along. The inverse is that we will have the roads to get to 8889 in the same time as 889 for the Desert city if we build it second.

	24-03-2003 08:02									#42
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One other twist: if we send the new worker from Tempest to the bonus grassland north of Arashi, we could wait and see how much extra gold we get from adding a worker to Hurricane before we commit ourselves to building the desert city. If it looks like we'll have enough gold without it, we could head the settler for the mountains, and being able to take advantage of the new road would buy back the time lost crossing and recrossing the river. (If the settler doesn't waste time, the road will be ready a turn too late.)

	24-03-2003 08:17									#43
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Proposed plan:

1) Go ahead and found our desert city.
2) Have our new worker in Tempest road the two bonus grasslands north of Arashi so our next Cyclone settler can build our iron city ASAP. We can barely have both roads ready in time, and that will shave another turn off the time to build that city. Note that the total settler transit time to build the two cities is reduced by two turns compared with if we built the iron city first.
3) Go ahead and add our worker south of Hurricane to Hurricane.
4) Our worker north of Tempest finishes his mine next turn and can move 2-6-6 to start improving a tile for our desert city.

How does that sound?

	24-03-2003 08:32									#44
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Sounds good to me.

We could move the warrior 99 from Arashi 477 to hold the coastal Grassland by the Iron to keep anyone from landing at that site. Along with an escort with our EotS Settler, moving the warrior 11 from Tempest 8, and moving the warrior 477 from Arashi 9, we would block off both the coastal grasslands by the Iron by the time we could get a Settler there, and still be able to see everything we need to see.

	24-03-2003 08:34									#45
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By the way, with Sufa founded, we're one shield away from a tie for first in Mfg. Goods.

	24-03-2003 08:41									#46
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As for the Lego Pyramids...

Our Palace is at 300 shields right now, and Lego probably has close to the same number of cities that we do. That leaves them with about 100 shields in the worst case.

Do you think they would go for some sort of Wonder coordination, so that the slower of the two of us wouldn't be wasting shields overbuilding other Wonders?

	24-03-2003 09:06									#47
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Worst case, the loser on the Pyramids can either grab the Great Library with no shield waste or get the Great Lighthouse (at least if we're the losers) with a waste of less than 100 shields. If Lego loses, I don't know whether the Great Lighthouse or Colossus would be an option for them or not. So I'm not sure how much coordination is needed. (The Great Library could have some merit if only for denial purposes if we miss the Pyramids.)

Do we know whether Lego was working on the Pyramids openly when we first met them?

	24-03-2003 09:08									#48
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I'll go ahead and finish playing the turn according to the plan I posted.

	24-03-2003 09:17									#49
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Shots sent.

	24-03-2003 09:50									#50
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Turn sent.

	24-03-2003 10:30									#51
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I really mean this: Someday, we DO need to show logs / diaries to the world.

Aeson and Nathan, the above dialog is... outstanding.

Damn, that does not do justice... you guys blow me away. We keep seeing people in th Strat forum questioning how to move up from Regent (?) or Monarch to Emperor... and, yeah, if someone were to read the last year+ of stuff they'd get a clue, but you guys are operating at Grandmaster level.

Kudos!

FP, don;t hit me in the head with a wet trout, but I really do think GS kicks ass over all other efforts I've seen. For all the spreadsheets and what not in the ISDG, our team members are the best in the world.

(Theseus goes to bed dreaming of much more analytical approaches to warmongering...)

	24-03-2003 11:56									#52
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Shots sent.

The mail contained the savegame instead of the screenshots.

	24-03-2003 12:29									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus FP, don;t hit me in the head with a wet trout, but I really do think GS kicks ass over all other efforts I've seen. For all the spreadsheets and what not in the ISDG, our team members are the best in the world.

You won't get any argument from me here.

	24-03-2003 13:00									#54
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(I'm sorry if this was covered already)
I'm somewhat nervous about the pyramids. Should we reconsider the option of integrating workers into Hurricane?

Edit: come to think of it, I'm not talking out of sense, only out of paranoia. Could someone comfort me and tell me that we're going to finish those darn pointy things in time?

	24-03-2003 13:29									#55
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The plan is to let Hurricane grow to size 7, then add 4 Workers. That should bring the Pyramids completion date to 670BC... turn 95.

Lego could beat us if they just switched from a Palace pre-build of ~300 shields and their city is producing 6.25+ shields per turn on average for the next 16 turns. Their Anarchy time should give us a turn or three advantage.

Sorry if that isn't comforting...

	24-03-2003 18:14									#56
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quote: Damn, that does not do justice... you guys blow me away.

Indeed so...
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	25-03-2003 17:54									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson The plan is to let Hurricane grow to size 7, then add 4 Workers. That should bring the Pyramids completion date to 670BC... turn 95.

Just so I get a good grip on our situation: is there anything we can do to make it happen sooner, even by compromising on development in other areas?

	25-03-2003 18:05									#58
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We really don't have the Workers available to do a whole lot. We could keep Hurricane as high pop as the terrain improvements allow for, but this slows down subsequent terrain improvements, and so overall production stays pretty much the same. Also, Despotism turns are better to use for the terrain improvements than Republic turns (from a commerce standpoint, and also regarding our 1 mined mountain), so doing them now is best.

To jump a turn we need to gain ~15 shields for the first one IIRC, and 19 for each additional turn. Without triggering our GA, I'm not sure we can speed things up. A turn or two at best.

	25-03-2003 18:17									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Without triggering our GA, I'm not sure we can speed things up. A turn or two at best.

Could you please tell me how many turns we'd shave off if we enter our GA immediately once we hit Republic?

	25-03-2003 19:00									#60
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The earlier we trigger our GA, the less benefit we get from it. Note especially that cities will grow faster after we finish the Pyramids, and that a later GA gives us more time to finish building our cities and build workers to add to cities. Yes, triggering our GA early would reduce our risk of being beat to the Pyramids, but is the difference in risk great enough to justify the cost? (Even assuming Vox would be willing to sacrifice a warrior to help us trigger it, which I seriously doubt will happen unless we give them a commitment to lasting peace.)