22-03-2003 21:58									#31
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I watched on the news that baghdad´s bombing was "the biggest of history". For me this is crap, how could that bombing be larger than Hiroshima, Tokyo, Dresden...? Maybe it was the most high tech, but I really doubt that the combined firepower of the bombs that were dropped could beat the 100 (?) kilotons of Nagasaki.

	22-03-2003 22:18									#32
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Nagasaki was about 20 kilotons or so.

We are told the US dropped 1500 different bombs and missile in the city: given that most are about or under 1 ton, that puts it at 1.5 kilotons. How much did a B-17 carry, or a Lancaster? If I remember, its about 3 tons of bombs for the B-17. If you have, lets say, 800 in one raid against one city one night, that comes out to a max of 2.4 kilotons. As far as I can remeber, we did have nights in which that many bombers struck one city.

So yeah, this is hardly the biggest bombing "ever".

Edit: I think that the B-17 could carry 6000 Kg's of bombs, which means 6tons, not 3. so move that kiloton number to 4.8.

Last edited by GePap on 22-03-2003 at 22:24

	22-03-2003 22:27									#33
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"Ever" nowadays means no more than five years.

Gepap: An example from Berlin, 1812 tons the first night 23 aug 1943, 8000 tons over four days.

	22-03-2003 22:30									#34
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"The facts as you have them".
Exactly.

The Iraqi generals talks about major civilian loses. But I doubt this came through to your media.

	22-03-2003 22:37									#35
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 "The facts as you have them". Exactly. The Iraqi generals talks about major civilian loses. But I doubt this came through to your media.

Paiktis, If true, this would be major news. The reason I created the "Post latest news here" thread was for just this reason. I don't think any of us should rely on our national media. If you have a story...then post it so we all can see.

	22-03-2003 22:42									#36
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Damned be humanity but it's saturday after all. Nastarovja!

	22-03-2003 22:43									#37
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I was surprised to the Iraqi minister of information giving a press conference. It was 2am in the morning I believe.

Did anyone here the jibberish coming forth from his mouth? What was that all about? The translator was terrible. CNN was covering the minister's appearance in the early morning hours.

According to the Iraqi minister of information:

1. Coalition forces are retreating.
2. Bush is an evil moron.
3. Iraqi forces have shot down most of the missiles coming into Baghdad.

And more...

Did he actually expect anyone to believe that the coalition forces are retreating??

------------------
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	22-03-2003 22:51									#38
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www.irakwar.ru

	22-03-2003 22:58									#39
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Iraq and al Qaeda are closely linked.

	22-03-2003 23:16									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Shi Huangdi www.irakwar.ru

?

	23-03-2003 02:20									#41
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Okay, now the Pentagon is saying they want "manage expectations" - chemical and biological weapons may be "very difficult to find", LOL

Wasn't that what the war was about?

Weren't we being told Iraq was overflowing with wmd material?

	23-03-2003 02:32									#42
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But of course they are difficult to find! The inspectors would never be able to do it, and while our intelligence tells us they have them, somehow, they just have no clue where they could be, whatsoever.

Eminently Logical, no?

	23-03-2003 02:38									#43
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Well, for one, the BBC has been reporting all day that Basra is in coolition hands, but no one else seems to say so.

	23-03-2003 02:46									#44
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quote: Originally posted by paiktis22 The Iraqi generals talks about major civilian loses. But I doubt this came through to your media.

From the horses mouth:

"BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- More than 200 civilians have been injured in the U.S.-led bombing of Baghdad, Iraq's information minister said Saturday.

Mohammad Saeed al-Sahaf was speaking to reporters after a huge barrage of bombs and missiles hit the Iraqi capital Friday evening with sporadic air raid alerts and isolated explosions continuing through the night."



Now I realize that CNN is biased, but they would never publish a blatant lie that has been recorded by the world-wide media as well. They would never compromise their integrity that much.

	23-03-2003 03:41									#45
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat 101 ABD is in Iraq, 82 ABD has troops rotated to Afghanistan now, having relieved 101 ABD there some time ago.

I've read on numberous sources that the 82nd has one brigade in Afganistan and one brigade in Kuwait.

Speaking of things not being covered: there's nearly no information about the US and UK attack in Western Iraq. It seems like the British paratroopers and some American paratroopers (the 82nd? The 173rd Brigade?) have seized some air bases which are being used to fly in reinforcements...

	23-03-2003 04:21									#46
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This is form an article in the NYTimes. I just found it so funny:

quote: By midmorning, the three Iraqi soldiers were sitting on blankets and picking from the bright yellow food packets provided by the Americans. They seemed ashamed to be prisoners, but made clear that a greater dread was life in the Iraqi Army. "We are not cowards, but what is the point?" said Ahmed Ghobashi, an Iraqi colonel from Baghdad. "I've got a rifle from World War II. What can I do against American airplanes?" Colonel Ghobashi talked on for a while, detailing his participation in the disastrous wars begun by Mr. Hussein in Iran and Kuwait. He had been a professional soldier, he said, and he did not sign up to engage in fanciful adventures. As Colonel Ghobashi talked on, his tone grew bitter, until he concluded that Saddam Hussein must have a secret agenda. "He doesn't give us enough to eat, and he doesn't pay us," the colonel said. "And then he starts this thing with the Americans and then tells us to defend the country against the invasion." Colonel Ghobashi pursed his lips in contemplation and rendered his final opinion on Mr. Hussein. "I believe he is an American agent," he said.

	23-03-2003 04:33									#47
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quote: Even through the telephone adn video phone (the Greek oens and I'm sure others) you could see whole squares of buildings being blown up.

Unfortunetly for your spin, the 'squares' of buildings all were contained in the Presidental Palace of Hussein, which is massive.

"Coalition forces are retreating" That is humerous!

	23-03-2003 05:08									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Even through the telephone adn video phone (the Greek oens and I'm sure others) you could see whole squares of buildings being blown up. Unfortunetly for your spin, the 'squares' of buildings all were contained in the Presidental Palace of Hussein, which is massive.

The reporter on the CBC said it was an area with many government buildings, but also densely populated by Baghdad's middle and upperclass. And he'd actually been there before this started.

	23-03-2003 05:18									#49
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I believe he is an American agent," he said.

	23-03-2003 06:55									#50
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I agree DanS, but there is something more disturbing about that: here is a guy who just gave up cause he thinks Saddam is nothing but trouble, and who gets the underlying blame? The US..lets hope this sort of thinking is limited to Colonel Ghobashi.

	25-03-2003 01:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Osweld The reporter on the CBC said it was an area with many government buildings, but also densely populated by Baghdad's middle and upperclass. And he'd actually been there before this started.

Would that be the same middle and upper class that's scooted to Jordan, Iran and Saudi? That could explain the lack of civilian casulties.

	25-03-2003 01:45									#52
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The capture American Soldiers are not soldiers... they are human shields.

	25-03-2003 01:53									#53
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According to Channel 4 news, there is not a shred of evidence that there was ever any plan to blow up the oil wells.

	25-03-2003 02:14									#54
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Many stories appearing as 'Breaking News' on news channels can be discounted

The TV coverage is proof that more is less - more pictures gives even less idea what is really happening. I have started to limit my TV viewing before I get lost inside the spin an rumour cycle

	25-03-2003 03:25									#55
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It looks like Saddam was telling the truth about not blowing up the oil fields (as compared to th news of charges being set, blah, blah, blah)

	25-03-2003 03:27									#56
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I don't think we are actually at war.

I believe the whole thing is staged in a Hollywood studio to boost the president's rating. The money for the war is being diverted to the Israelis.

	25-03-2003 15:58									#57
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A few lies now becoming clear:

The 51st Iraqi division defending Basra hasn't surrendered.

The Iraqi army generally isn't surrendering, or "melting away" (aside from those melted by smart bombs).

The general population isn't dancing in the streets at liberation by the coalition.

"pockets of resistance" seem to be more than pockets.

	25-03-2003 16:10									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman According to Channel 4 news, there is not a shred of evidence that there was ever any plan to blow up the oil wells.

You mean, besides the blown up oil wells?

	25-03-2003 18:16									#59
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It is extremely difficult to judge what is lie and what is the 'fog of war', which must be even worse for the Iraqis....if some cut off commander hears that 'we are throwing the Americans back' why question that until he sees otherwise?

That said, I will call these 'inaccuracies' since we don't know whether they are lies or mistakes:

US

aircraft lost due to accidents

51 divsional surrender (definetly a mistake; the guy lied and said he was a divisional commander)

characterizing the action in the south in Basra as 'mopping up', the Iraqis contained within pockets of resistance; it seems more like the US forces were like a boat going into a lake, the water just flowed around them.

Oil fields: what is on fire? What isn't?

Missiles: Legal or illegal, SCUDS or what?

WoMD: a priority to find? Will they fabricate them, or ask the world to believe an Iraqi scientist enticed with, perhaps a nice salary in the new regime?

Population: are they cheering for the cameras and sniping at night? What does the population really think? Especially, will the Sunnis in the north be as happy as the Shiites? I think we are being shown a lot of positive images about candy distributing soliders, and I have a suspicious nature...

Iraqis:

The farmer and the Apache was pathetic. The guy did not shoot down an Apache in perfect condition with a bolt-action rifle.

Saddams 'military genius' seems less than apparent when you listen to him rant.

the oil-fields: on fire or not?

The Americans actually retreating anywhere: Are they kidding? I hope he didn't actually use the word rout...

Attacking some service battalion dudes 'from behind' guerilla style is great, big, huge, allah akbar, forking victory, yeah right....

	25-03-2003 18:49									#60
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I think showing that farmer that shot down an apache may backfire. That is intimidating aircraft to look at, even when shot down.

Overall, I think the resistance has been overplayed.