22-03-2003 21:37									#1
	Wonders Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In the 1125 BC save F7 shows that GoW has started building the Pyramids in the Imperial City. It was not there in the 1150 BC save.

Here is a run down of the ancient and middle age wonders for discussion:

Wonder .......... Cost Range ... Obsolete .. Effect
Pyramids ........ 400 .Continent Never ..... Free granary in every city on the continent.
Hanging Gardens . 300 .Empire .. Steam Power 3 happy faces in city that builds plus 1 in all cities.
Colossus ........ 200 .City .... Flight .... +1 trade in each trade producing tile
Great Litehouse . 300 .Empire .. Magnetism . +1 ship movement. Galleys safe in sea.
Great Library ... 400 .Empire .. Education . Gain advances owned by 2 civs.
Oracle .......... 300 .Empire .. Theology .. Doubles happiness of Temple.
Great Wall ...... 200 .Empire .. Metallurgy. Doubles city defenses.
Sun Tzu ......... 600 .Continent Never ..... Free barracks in every city on continent.
Sistine ......... 600 .Empire .. Never ..... Doubles happiness of Cathedral in all cities.
Copernicus's .... 400 .City .... Never ..... Doubles research output of city.
Leonardo's ...... 600 .Empire .. Never ..... Halves cost of upgrades.
JS Bach's ....... 600 .Empire .. Never ..... 2 happy faces in city that builds wonder plus 2 in all cities.

• I rate JS Bach's and Sistine as high priority because they both affect happiness and therefore improve city production. JS may be better for with our cities on two continents and it helps small cities that have not yet built temples and cathedrals.
  
• Combining Colossus with Copernicus's, and later Newton's, does great things to your research rate.
  
• The usefullness of Leonardo's depends on how much upgrading we do later. If you have highly productive cities there are alternatives to upgrading.
  
• Sun Tzu and Pyramids are both useful but their effects are reduced for us with the continent split. These would be more useful to the continental civs.
  
• Hanging Gardens is a maybe if we get it soon (we don't even have Monarchy yet).
  
• The Great Litehouse, Great Library, and Oracle are all of little or no value to us considering the tech pace.
  
• The Great Wall may have some benefit if we get into a protracted war soon but we will only get its benefit if we also build walls in or border cities and those cities stay small.
  

	22-03-2003 22:27									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I like JS Bach's. If we can get it it would be great. However, I think it is a long time off, seeing as we really need to expand.

	22-03-2003 22:39									#3
	Put an end to popups!

Harry - I think you are right on in your analysis of the usefulness of the wonders. It is surprising how an MP game has changed their values. The great Library was always a must have - now - I agree with you - by the time you got it built it would be obsolete.

I like the ones mentioned. I like the Colussus because it is cheap - but it does become obsolete. I like Copernicus' and Newton's in particular. And as per macy's post - JS Bach's. Sun Tzu's next tier in my books.

As to whether we should start - I have been thinking of this for awhile. We can't use any of the three northern cities - they all have critical purposes right now.

City #2 would make the most sense. Start on it right from the get go. Let it build at the rate of one pop every 10 turns, adding shields aas it goes. The nice thing is that with so many wonders up for grabs, you will never get near the end - have someone else build it, and not have any choices left.

The other choice would be Wittlich City - but we have just produced a barracks there and need to pump out some more units.

The other thing to remember is that a military campaign on the continent using veteram Immortals may produce a leader.

	22-03-2003 22:42									#4
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the only thing I might add is that we appear to be on chieftan level. So the value of sistine and bach's isn't super high, but still very important.

	23-03-2003 02:57									#5
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I like Sun Tzu can never have too many free buildings

	23-03-2003 04:29									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I like the ones mentioned. I like the Colussus because it is cheap - but it does become obsolete.

Of all the ones that expire it lasts the longest. Coupled with the science wonders it provides great value until it expires. Elipolis is a good candidate.

	23-03-2003 04:33									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: the only thing I might add is that we appear to be on chieftan level. So the value of sistine and bach's isn't super high, but still very important.

Two citizens born content, temple, cathedral, Sistine's and JS Bach's gives 11 content citizens in every city. Add just one luxury to create a happy citizen will allow one more to be unhappy without disorder. All our of size cities maxed out at size 12 would be able to have every laborer working without needing anything on the luxury slider.

	23-03-2003 05:14									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I still say there is some confusion over the number of content citizens. The game save says regent - which would be two. But we did that test earlier - remember Diss, where we let the city grow to size 3 - before we had a temple and no units in it - and it was still OK. Which would imply Chieftain.

But I agree with your last point Harry - about the combo effect. And another argument to keep our cities on the same continent as much as possible.