23-03-2003 12:26									#31
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what the

OK I have a lot of catching up to do

	23-03-2003 20:35									#32
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I believe that GoW mentioned a war with GS just to keep us from settling Bob. I still don't think Gow will help us in a war with GS - no matter what that state at the moment.

I still say we settle our section of Bob. If they don't like us there - then they have to physically remove us from Bob.

	23-03-2003 21:52									#33
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Possible 4:
We leave our friendship with GS in tack. We agree to help GoW against RP in exchange for the land to settle the 5 cities on Bob. The five city sites would be Ost south of the cow plus B1, B2, B4, and B5 from the pic I sent last night. This still leaves GS in a leadership position and a future obstacle to our winning.

	23-03-2003 22:15									#34
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I like Harry's proposal. This wont get us into any potentially suicidal wars on our continent and allows us to build more cities on Bob.

I dont think GoW will agree though.

In any case, I have a bad feeling about a war with GS.

	23-03-2003 22:19									#35
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You and I are on the same wave length Eli. I too have a bad feeling about turning against GS without provokation.

I too like Harry's latest proposal. Of course, we don't tell GoW that we are planning on building 5 cities. Just let them know that our one city is being founded - the other 4 cities come later.

	23-03-2003 22:30									#36
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Besides, I still think GoW thought up this "alliance" just to keep us off of Bob. If we went to war with GS it would keep us busy and allow GoW to settle the eastern portion of Bob. I doubt we would be able to take GS all the way out, and by the time we realized this GoW would have sealed up the eastern side of Bob and we would be screwed. No. I say continue with our expansion plan on Bob. Yes GoW will not like it and most likely threaten war over it...but I still think they are seeing how far they can push us to do their bidding. Hell, they only have 1 mounted archer on the eastern side of Bob - I, for one, am not impressed.

	23-03-2003 22:44									#37
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Because of this nagging voice in the back of my mind concerning the "basis" of this alliance - I have cast my vote of No.

Yes, I might end up being the only one against it...but it just doesn't seem like GoW is being truthful with us. So I'm going with my gut feeling on this.

	23-03-2003 22:56									#38
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Extraodinary post Harry! Never worry about saying too much. I usually do.

Lots to think about. The good thing is we do not have to declare war in the short term. We have more growth to go - and some Immortals to build.

	24-03-2003 00:11									#39
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btw GS is average to us militarily. I do think we can take them. RP is stronger than us though.

	24-03-2003 00:14									#40
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dont' forget we have a non-agresssion pact with RP for another 45 turns or so.

	24-03-2003 00:22									#41
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I voted no. It is very tempting to vote yes. I do believe we can take GS. we are average now, and it wouldn't take much work to get superior to them.

the hard part is our lack of fast units. And because of our lack of horses I have to vote no.

Now if GOW were to gurantee us horses I might be more tempted.

	24-03-2003 01:44									#42
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A potential problem is that too much peace basically means that our Immortals are wasted. Knights will show up soon, and without horses we're doomed.

We must expand to the green lands of GS. Otherwise, even if we manage somehow without horses we'll end up without Coal, Rubber or Oil.

Now that I think about it. We should war GS, with or without GoW's help.

So we should agree. Pump out warriors and money, upgrade to immortals and annihilate GS with the help of GoW.

We must do it soon, before our Immortals are obsolete.

Diss mentioned that our military forces are more or less equal. That's great because this means that with extra 5-6 Immortals we will be able to defeat them, or at least grab some important land.

We might have to loan money to make enough upgrades. I dont think we have enough time to manufacture 30 shield Immortals.

Also, human wars are not like AI wars. Humans fight almost to the end, and GS with it's collection of great players will definetely believe in their own success.
That means two things.
1) The war will most likely end either with our complete or almost complete victory, or with our complete defeat or with us losing and blocking them at Elipolist( ).
2) We must have allies to attack from another front.

All this also means that we will have to give up on Bob to achieve the cooperation of GoW.

One more thing. We should try to make the same agreement with another rival of RP. If bot GoW and ND agree to help us against GS, in exchange for our withdrawal from Bob and our later help against RP, victory will be much easier to achieve.

	24-03-2003 01:59									#43
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quote: I meant with a galley around the continent. is that against our agreement?

I asked about that once before. Jon indicated that GS would not be happy so I kind of got the impression it was implied.

	24-03-2003 02:02									#44
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Regarding the non-aggression pact with RP...

If we go with the GoW plan the war with GS should be over by then, After we finish a period of rebuilding the pack with RP will already have expired. In the mean time, GoW and ND continue settling Bob and possibly any convenient islands on the other side betwen them and Lego.

	24-03-2003 02:11									#45
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I like the ida opf going to war with someone

and I like the idea of fighting GS now, before they get stronger

but I also really like the tech deal

and our tech is (And has been) slow

Jon Miller

	24-03-2003 02:13									#46
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quote: and our tech is (And has been) slow

It will get much better if we take over the GS lands.

	24-03-2003 02:19									#47
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and shifted our capitol

and were not hit by the people of Bob when we were doing so

Jon Miller

	24-03-2003 02:19									#48
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quote: All this also means that we will have to give up on Bob to achieve the cooperation of GoW.

True. We will get a lot more out of the GS territory than we will in a corner of Bob.

quote: One more thing. We should try to make the same agreement with another rival of RP. If bot GoW and ND agree to help us against GS, in exchange for our withdrawal from Bob and our later help against RP, victory will be much easier to achieve.

The more the merrier, provided they agree to give us all of Estonia. Any cities they take must be given to us. One nice advantage to that is any city they give us converts its citizens to Voxians. No foreign national problem. In return, when the war is over we give them the Bob city south of the cow. Once we have a chance to rebuild and the non-aggression pact is over we go against RP.

	24-03-2003 02:26									#49
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We need at least 8-10 turns to get a decent size force.

We wait until the tech trade is done. In fact - if the timing is right - we stiff them on the free tech and walk in. They have to give us cuurency and constructiuon first in order to get the free tech in return. We can do this without republic - we can get it later in a trade if need be. We tell GS we are researching monarchy, which was Shiber's suggestion. Hence we don't have any money.

We can also push for the 20 gold for the map making deal. Also tell them we have a deal for two future techs for our tech - in advance - but we need to put in 80 gold - can they put up 40 now.

Just some ideas.

I'm with Eli and jon on this - but then - do we even settle on Bob? It would be good cover for an invasion against GS, and could be our explanation for forces build up. If need be - we can gift it to GoW later. Same with a second city we could provide to NeuD. Great cover - and great leverage with the Bobians.

	24-03-2003 02:32									#50
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do you think we have enough time to use our Immortals?

Knights could be coming very fast.

	24-03-2003 02:45									#51
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quote: They have to give us cuurency and constructiuon first in order to get the free tech in return. We can do this without republic - we can get it later in a trade if need be.

I think we will get them all at once. My guess is GS is trading Republic to Lego for Currency and Construction. My guess is we will get them all at once, or maybe even Republic as soon as GS finishes it and the other one turn later after GS completes the trade with Lego. The only way we lose out is if GS does an early trade with Lego where we get C&C before GS finishes Republic. In that case they will be asking for the free tech before we get Republic. We could tell them we are still holding out for that 20 gold to pay for Map Making.

	24-03-2003 02:54									#52
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quote: do you think we have enough time to use our Immortals? Knights could be coming very fast.

We will have to act fast as soon as we get the techs from GS. It will take a few turns for them to switch to Republic plus they have to research Feudalism and Chivalry before they can build knights and that assumes they have iron connected somewhere. If we have some galleys just our side of the border and out of their vision range, we can get some immortals on their doorstep in a few turns while the rest of the force marches down the mountains. We will have taken some of their cities before they can get knights. GoW or ND units will provide a distraction and together we have a chance of disrupting any iron supply they have.

	24-03-2003 02:55									#53
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Oh, my. If we don't give them Monotheism that is another tech they will have to research before they can build knights.

	24-03-2003 03:56									#54
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Exactly Harry. I am liking this more and more. It is clearly a gamble - but as Eli and yourself have pointed out - our options are limited, and the window of opportunity is closing fast.

So - I am drafting an outline of a plan - and will post it shortly.

Operation Immortal Beloved.

	24-03-2003 04:06									#55
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Though I don't like it...you all might me right. Maybe going after GS is our only hope. I guess it's either feast (take out GS) or famine (GS takes us out)...

	24-03-2003 04:23									#56
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The consensus so far in another thread has been that Space Race and Domination are the most likely outcomes of this game.

If the world stays in its current division of land the only way anyone will be able to win is by lauching the space ship. In that case we lose. Our research rate and our production capacity are too small. Someone else will beat us to it. The likely candidates will be GS and Lego. Both are actively building and will have powerful civilizations by the end of the middle ages. Sooner or later the Bob civs will war and that will cost them. Even if one of them manages to conquer all of Bob it will take them a while to do it and it will cost them a lot. Both GS and Lego may be too far ahead for the Bob winner to rebuild the conquered territories and catch up in time. I think the Bob civs will end up trying for a Domination win.

Staying put or fighting a defensive war on Bob will not help us win the Space Race or by Domination. In both cases we need territory and the only way I see to get it now is by attacking GS. A small piece of Bob will not be enough and may prove to be very costly to get. The productive lands down south will provide a good basis for being a competitor in the Space Race as well as putting us a step closer to a Domination victory.

Or, we can forget trying to win and just play to watch the world around us. Besides, if GS takes us out we can apply for refuge status and join them.

	24-03-2003 04:39									#57
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Touche' Harry. Like I've already stated - I don't like it - but on the other hand, what viable options do we have left to us? I guess it's "grab your balls, give a battle cry, and jump!"

	24-03-2003 05:00									#58
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Ok, I guess I'm starting to "see the light." Take one vote from "No" and move it to "Yes" - Though I still have reservations, what choice do we really have?

	24-03-2003 10:57									#59
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Good points all around. I have had to think hard but as I see it we must take our chance. "You can't lose what you don't put on the table.... But you can't win much either." Lets get to work!

	24-03-2003 13:58									#60
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yes if we don't act now we will fall further behind.

but I worry about our lack of horses. I wonder if GS has horses.