25-03-2003 05:23									#31
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again iam am confused abnd request a screenshot

	25-03-2003 05:31									#32
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb There's Iron, Ivory, Gems, Spice, and Silk in them dar hills! Any of you non-Bob civs want to buy a treasure map?

AHEM....

Ghengis, you should know better than to listen to Mr.Mitchell. Furthermore, you should perhaps consider not angering us with this sort of deceptive chatter.

Would you like for us to tell your new Immortal visitors what resources your nation LACKS? Hmm? Wouldn't they love to fight GoW in the Middle Ages armed with such knowledge?

Perhaps you should treat your Pact brother with a little more respect.

--Togas

	25-03-2003 06:15									#33
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quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell Now that I have listend to reason from the private forum, I've been convinced that they probably should pull back (as the settlement was a surprise and all, and I didn't expect anyone _other_ than GoW or ND to settle it, nor did anyone else.) Also, you should know that all Declarations of Mrmitchell are worthless because he is almost 3000 years old and very, very senile. Leave the declarations to Grand Despot Togas please.

we had intended to land a city there before Lux fought a war

and I am reptty sure we planned our city before you

Jon Miler

	25-03-2003 06:16									#34
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also, we see this land with no signs of inhabitants

anywhere you go in our claimed territory you will see signs of inhabitation (roads or culture)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 06:46									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Togas Would you like for us to tell your new Immortal visitors what resources your nation LACKS? Hmm? Wouldn't they love to fight GoW in the Middle Ages armed with such knowledge? --Togas

Yes, please!

Sorry, couldn't resist the offer....

Knowledge is power after all.

	25-03-2003 06:50									#36
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Perhaps Vox could show its dedication to continued peace and cooperation by withdrawing? Such a gesture will be greatly appreciated by all Bob civs right now and certainly mean we would be better inclined to help you out in other ways should you need it.

Do you need the land? If so then perhaps we can all come to an agreement. If not then withdrawing will not affect your ability to settle and develop to a reasonable size, and it will put a big next to your name as far as Neu Demogyptica, Glory of War and Roleplay are all concerned.

	25-03-2003 06:58									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Togas AHEM.... Ghengis, you should know better than to listen to Mr.Mitchell. Furthermore, you should perhaps consider not angering us with this sort of deceptive chatter. Would you like for us to tell your new Immortal visitors what resources your nation LACKS? Hmm? Wouldn't they love to fight GoW in the Middle Ages armed with such knowledge? Perhaps you should treat your Pact brother with a little more respect. --Togas

Okay, sorry no more maps available. Copyright infringement issues don't you know.

	25-03-2003 15:02									#38
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Speaking for myself (and this is not an official Gathering Storm position), I find it amazing that there's so much heat over Vox's settling land practically next door to their capital just because the land happens to be across a tiny bit of water - especially when that land was originally destined to belong to a civ that doesn't even exist anymore. Vox finds themselves in the odd position that land on another continent is closer to their capital, and therefore would have lower corruption, than land practically anywhere on their own continent. I'm curious as to what Glory of War, Role Play, or Neu Demogyptica would do if you found yourselves in Vox's position.

Most of the time, I think it makes perfect sense that a civ's deciding to claim land on another continent be viewed as a bit, um, aggressive. But in the unusual circumstances of this case, insisting that Vox leave looks mostly just plain greedy.

Nathan

	25-03-2003 16:43									#39
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Speaking for myself (and this is not an official Gathering Storm position), I find it amazing that there's so much heat over Vox's settling land practically next door to their capital just because the land happens to be across a tiny bit of water - especially when that land was originally destined to belong to a civ that doesn't even exist anymore. Vox finds themselves in the odd position that land on another continent is closer to their capital, and therefore would have lower corruption, than land practically anywhere on their own continent. I'm curious as to what Glory of War, Role Play, or Neu Demogyptica would do if you found yourselves in Vox's position. Most of the time, I think it makes perfect sense that a civ's deciding to claim land on another continent be viewed as a bit, um, aggressive. But in the unusual circumstances of this case, insisting that Vox leave looks mostly just plain greedy. Nathan

If I was in Vox's position, I would certainly announce my intention and bargain with the closest civs on the new continent before landing settlers and immortals.

We are not greedy, the land is simply a spoil of war. Both ND & GoW earned the rights to the land.

Perhaps GS should consider their actions, if they found themselves in ND, GoW's or RP's position, and discovered an invasion force and a settler preparing to create a city as a staging point for war.

	25-03-2003 16:53									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Perhaps GS should consider their actions, if they found themselves in ND, GoW's or RP's position, and discovered an invasion force and a settler preparing to create a city as a staging point for war.

Do you have reason to believe that Vox intended to fight you? I realise that the Immortals suggest an agressive stance, but it's not unreasonable to escort even a peaceful expeditionary force with military units (to dispose of Barb encampments if nothing else).

Vox don't exactly have a lot of land on our continent - less than us I expect. The only options they have to expand is to either declare war on GS or move onto Bob. Since they can't see any of your cultural borders I can certainly understand why they chose the latter option.

However, I agree that some communication from them warning you of their intentions to land on Bob would have been the most sensible move.

	25-03-2003 17:24									#41
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When we made contact with Vox all was well. We talked about trades we talked about non aggression pacts we talked about this and that. No problem so far.

When we mentioned that we would not like to see settlers of foreign countrys to settle on Borconia, Vox replied to us that we were unfriendly which we did not understand.

The next thing we heard from Vox was the ado about having landed an expedition corps on Borconia. We were astonished and we were in alert. There was a chat and Vox told us they would leave Borconia without building a city here and all was well again. Trusting in the very word they said.

Then we got the save and were amazed! A tiny little setttlement on Borconia founded by our "guests" from Estonia. That is what upset me most and what realy lead to the imediate declaration of war. I don't like it if i'm taken for a fool. If you would have insisted on having this city on Borconia then you should have said it. Of course you would have had to face the consequences as well and we may have declared the war anyway but then you would have acted it in a honorable way.

Now we are realy pissed of and i think we won't trust you anymore. It'll be very hard to apease us now. We would have been satisfied to throw you off of Borconia but now we are willing to go even further though we still don't plan to build colonys on Estonia.

	25-03-2003 17:33									#42
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I agree that if they promised not to settle, and then went back on their word, a declaration of war is more easily justified.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 25-03-2003 at 17:45

	25-03-2003 19:26									#43
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To give peace a chance I recommend Vox to abandon their newly founded city on Borconia and to leave the continent immediatly with all their troups!

The people in ND are very upset...

	25-03-2003 19:29									#44
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay I find it amazing that there's so much heat over Vox's settling land practically next door to their capital just because the land happens to be across a tiny bit of water -

Are you kidding? That's what makes this game so much fun!

	25-03-2003 21:12									#45
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WE have just as much right to the land as you do. this war may be a bad idea, But it is one we feel is more about principle and setting an example for the rest of the game. You can't just claim all the territory you like. You must earn it.

	25-03-2003 21:33									#46
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Oh no problem we will get what we want, one way or another be sure you will have a hard life on borconia if at all...

	25-03-2003 22:12									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Perhaps GS should consider their actions, if they found themselves in ND, GoW's or RP's position, and discovered an invasion force and a settler preparing to create a city as a staging point for war.

Invasion force? Two immortals looks more like a deterrent against an attack on the settler/city than like anything intended for offensive operations. Staging point for war? The city would definitely have that potential if Vox would choose to use it that way, but my impression is that economics alone provide ample reason for Vox to want a city there. And it's not as if Vox is the biggest, most powerful civ on Apolyton. So the question if I were in that situation would be, is kicking Vox off the continent worth the price I'd have to pay relative to other civs if I'd fight them?

Of course Darekill's charge that Vox said they'd leave and then didn't raises some additional concerns from ND's perspective beyond the purely pragmatic.

	26-03-2003 01:21									#48
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Of course Darekill's charge that Vox said they'd leave and then didn't raises some additional concerns from ND's perspective beyond the purely pragmatic.

I agree to your points, Nathan, but this last one is putting it mildly... We would probably go to war over this alleged kind of dishonesty too. Even if I personally agree that Vox has some special rights which makes this an exceptional situation, instead of a militaristic expansion, nobody should lie, ever.

If they promised to leave, they should leave. If they didn't, other teams might consider Vox's position a bit, some compromis should be possible here, IMHO.

DeepO

	26-03-2003 01:23									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel We are not greedy, the land is simply a spoil of war. Both ND & GoW earned the rights to the land.

Hah. I agree that you should have rights to all the land that was Lux's. No argument there. But this was never Lux's!! That's the point NeuD and GoW seem to be missing.

	26-03-2003 01:26									#50
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay Invasion force? Two immortals looks more like a deterrent against an attack on the settler/city than like anything intended for offensive operations. Staging point for war? The city would definitely have that potential if Vox would choose to use it that way, but my impression is that economics alone provide ample reason for Vox to want a city there. And it's not as if Vox is the biggest, most powerful civ on Apolyton. So the question if I were in that situation would be, is kicking Vox off the continent worth the price I'd have to pay relative to other civs if I'd fight them?

Thank-you Nathan. Nicely put.

	26-03-2003 01:40									#51
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quote: Originally posted by nbarclay So the question if I were in that situation would be, is kicking Vox off the continent worth the price I'd have to pay relative to other civs if I'd fight them?

And one more point to add to Nathan's comments - and that is taking on Lux before they had an army ready will certainly be different than taking on a Vox city defended by spearmen and immortals. As the city is surrounded by grassland tiles, the NeuD swordsmen will be dead before they even get a chance to attack - and it will take a lot of GoW horsemen to break through. Casualties will be high. And for what - a corner of a continent far from both capitols.

The emotions I can understand. The logic eludes me.

And to all those who have suggested we should have asked or informed them first - do you honestly think their reaction would have been more positive? Even before we had planned on landing we had been told we weren't welcome.

	26-03-2003 02:16									#52
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quote: We are not greedy, the land is simply a spoil of war. Both ND & GoW earned the rights to the land.

What war?!

You didn't fight a single battle.

	26-03-2003 02:47									#53
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound And for what - a corner of a continent far from both capitols.

Wait a minute, I thought you said it was close to your capital!

The truth revealed!

	26-03-2003 02:52									#54
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far from both your capitals

Jon Milelr

	26-03-2003 02:53									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller Jon Milelr

Is this a hip new spelling of your last name?

	26-03-2003 04:22									#56
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quote: Originally posted by alva What war?! You didn't fight a single battle.

We huffed and we puffed and blew their towns down.

There was one battle.
Horseman vs worker.
It was a close fight, but our horseman was victorious.

	26-03-2003 05:32									#57
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* alva rushes to Grand Poobah to tell him, our worker army strategy might not cut it ! *

	26-03-2003 05:33									#58
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quote: Horseman vs worker.

Hey, almost missed that !!!

I demand for all slaves to set free right away !!!

	26-03-2003 07:36									#59
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quote: Originally posted by BetaHound Hah. I agree that you should have rights to all the land that was Lux's. No argument there. But this was never Lux's!! That's the point NeuD and GoW seem to be missing.

Fine. Stay and devote enormous amounts into a futile battle that you cannot win. If you think that GS is just going to sit back and watch the fire works, your nuts.

I doesn't matter if you think our claim is valid, we have made it and are going to back it up Militarily.

	26-03-2003 07:40									#60
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It isn't so much that another civ claims the land as do you think you can sucessfully defend it from three civs who don't have to rely on ships and harbors to assault the city.