23-03-2003 13:03									#1
	Cheating AI Aggravates This Player Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Everyone:

I am playing on a customized Earth map where I've located the English in Australia, and it may very well be the last time I put them in Australia (my Australia is a bit greener than the RL one). I'm playing at the Emperor level, and the English AI is cheating like hell when it comes to building wonders. First of all, it has isolation on its side (except that it's picking fights with Asian and African powers), and, secondly, the AI is almost at Civ I levels when it comes to wonders: IOW, as soon as it has the technology for the wonder, it "insta-builds" the damn thing.

I've never been so sorely tempted to play God as I am right now to blast that cheating English AI civilization out of the game. Frickin A! You can't keep up with a cheating AI unless you decide to cheat as well, and I'm not that kind of player!

Gatekeeper

	23-03-2003 14:00									#2
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If the AI builds the wonders you like in Australia, you sail to Australia and take the cities: the wonders will be yours

	23-03-2003 14:24									#3
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Yeah, except I'm one of those players who puts up mainly a defensive army for most of the game and concentrates on economic and scientific development. Plus, the English AI nabbed Magellan's Expedition, so my ships will be at a distinct disadvantage when I finally do put together convoys packed to the gills with offensive divisions.

I did have a small victory, though: I snatched the United Nations out from beneath not only the English, but Russia and those wusses in India, too. And now I'm building the Hoover Dam in Washington, D.C. Next on my list is J.S. Bach's Cathedral (a nice complement to Michelangelo's Chapel at the Emperor level).

The English AI is still nuts, though, when building wonders. I hate how the AI can combine all its shield production in a single turn and devote it to any project in any city.

Gatekeeper

	23-03-2003 15:23									#4
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This can be shortened to two words: Silly AI

	23-03-2003 19:37									#5
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Well, since this game is from 1996, you can't expect it to have a great AI... The computer has to compensate for its dumbness by cheating, otherwise the computer would be no match for the human player, even at emperor level.

	23-03-2003 21:03									#6
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Ah, but if the English weren't cheating, this game of yours would be entirely unremarkable. You'd win in a breeze, and might even get bored.

What I'm trying to say is that, as annoying as those cheats are, I've grown used to them. And if the AI didn't cheat, the game would be too easy all the time, as opposed to merely being too easy a lot of the time

	23-03-2003 23:14									#7
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Yeah, well, my mood will get better once I finish work on the Hoover Dam. That'll give me a nice industrial boost that, in time, will produce many, many combat divisions.

I've thought about "evening out" the lower level games by limiting my cities to only 10 or so offensive divisions apiece. But that makes it a real pain to conquer some of those huge AI empires at pop up towards the endgame (I don't fight for the most part until the industrial and modern ages). That way I can enjoy the game even more w/o the aggravating AI cheats that become obvious at Emperor and Deity.

Gatekeeper

	24-03-2003 21:37									#8
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In no games on this earth where an AI doesn't cheat on harder levels, catch ups, stats boost, unbeleivable accuracy. It's the same in any game. Stop complaining.

Spec.

	24-03-2003 21:49									#9
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Gatekeeper,

As in Real Life, you should have no illusion of control over what happens around you. You can only control your attitude. Is it an AI cheat or a human handicap (to level the game)?? Your choice.

Now live with your choice and get on with your game. You might as well whine about the oncoming tide washing over your sandcastle.

Monk (the Inscrutable)

	24-03-2003 23:11									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator In no games on this earth where an AI doesn't cheat on harder levels, catch ups, stats boost, unbeleivable accuracy. It's the same in any game. Stop complaining. Spec.

No one made you come into this thread. No one made you post in this thread. You did so anyway. You want me to stop complaining? Then stop posting in threads like this if they offend you, buddy.

Gatekeeper

	24-03-2003 23:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Gatekeeper, As in Real Life, you should have no illusion of control over what happens around you. You can only control your attitude. Is it an AI cheat or a human handicap (to level the game)?? Your choice. Now live with your choice and get on with your game. You might as well whine about the oncoming tide washing over your sandcastle. Monk (the Inscrutable)

Yeah, talk about inscrutable. BTW, the damn game is over and, yes, I won. I'll remember not post any commentary about my on-going games the next time.

Gatekeeper

	24-03-2003 23:53									#12
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You must have been standing on your head to draw that conclusion...and I'm sure it was a glorious game.

This may be harder for you to grasp than I thought. Humans can cheat. The AI can not cheat. Period.

Just play and enjoy.

Monk

	25-03-2003 11:51									#13
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Technically, the AI doesn't have the wherewithal to cheat. It has to be programmed by a human to cheat.

That said, I'm one of those players — rare, apparently? — that doesn't exploit each every AI fraility, particularly if it offends real world sensibilities, at least from my viewpoint. To this end, I don't ship chain, and I don't double-stack dips or spies to keep them from being kicked out of enemy territory, I don't ring my cities with airbases to prevent AI aerial attacks, and I don't built airbases on the tops of frigid, snow-covered mountains because you can't do that IRL very often, if at all.

Gatekeeper

	25-03-2003 17:26									#14
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since you can fly around the world in less than 2 days, and ships can circumnavigate the world in several times in a year, I don't see any problem with using ship chains with reguards to real world travel. taking a couple millinium to circumnavigate the world is what doesn't make sense to me

	26-03-2003 12:44									#15
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OK, OK, so I feel sorry for the AI, except when it begins to insta-build wonders.

	26-03-2003 18:24									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper OK, OK, so I feel sorry for the AI, except when it begins to insta-build wonders.

That's annoying... except, that the game allows the human player to cheat and finish wonders first, too

For example - you get a message that the Romans are almost finished building Lighthouse. If you do nothing, they build it next turn.

However, if you immediately rush Lighthouse on seeing that message, the Romans do not build LH next turn. It's delayed. Obviously you need 2 turns to finish - 1 turn to fill the shield box by rushing/disbanding, and the next turn the wonder is complete.

I can't see why the computer takes an extra turn to build a wonder if a human decides to rushbuild it - except as a way to make it easier for the human player to get the wonders they want.

	26-03-2003 19:20									#17
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Store up a few camels and you can use your production from multiple cities to rush build wonders as soon as you get the techs as well.

	27-03-2003 02:10									#18
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STYOM:

There are times the AI gives you no warning when it's undertaken or is about to complete a wonder project. I don't know if it's a Mac-specifc thing or if it also occurs on the PC versions as well. There seems to be no pattern to when you're informed about the undertaking or completion of AI wonder efforts. Most of the time, yes, but not all the time.

Strange, isn't it?

Gatekeeper

	27-03-2003 02:12									#19
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quote: Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter Store up a few camels and you can use your production from multiple cities to rush build wonders as soon as you get the techs as well.

Been there, done that. Just not in this particular game, because the English AI was getting knowledge left and right. Fortunately, things evened out towards the end of the game, when I was able to nab the really important stuff — United Nations, Hoover Dam, SETI Program and the Apollo Program. But I did miss Magellan's Voyage and Copernicus' Observatory, two nice wonders to have early to mid-game, IMHO.

Gatekeeper

	27-03-2003 02:47									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper STYOM: There are times the AI gives you no warning when it's undertaken or is about to complete a wonder project. I don't know if it's a Mac-specifc thing or if it also occurs on the PC versions as well. There seems to be no pattern to when you're informed about the undertaking or completion of AI wonder efforts. Most of the time, yes, but not all the time. Strange, isn't it? Gatekeeper

That sounds Mac specific. In all the versions of Civ I've played (MGE, ToT, 2.42) on the PC, I always get a wonder warning from the AI. And if I rush the wonder, I can finish ahead of them, as I described above.

	29-03-2003 08:55									#21
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I think it may be, i recently acqured a copy of civ2 mge for mac, after playing civ2 on the pc for years, and i think its a mac specific thing(seems like the pathfinding is off as well, but that's another gripe).

	29-03-2003 09:49									#22
	AI builds WOW w/o warning Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

There is a way this can happen, though it is a technicality.

If the AI warned about a WOW that you then rush out from under it, the AI will announce it is switching to another WOW. It can then build it next turn without an intervening warning.

That has happened many times. On a PC....

Monk

	29-03-2003 11:42									#23
	Re: AI builds WOW w/o warning Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk There is a way this can happen, though it is a technicality. If the AI warned about a WOW that you then rush out from under it, the AI will announce it is switching to another WOW. It can then build it next turn without an intervening warning. That has happened many times. On a PC.... Monk

There is a similar case when one AI civ completes a wonder and as a result another civ switches to a wonder that needs less shields and completes straight away. I've only seen it happen once.

RJM at Sleepers

	29-03-2003 12:20									#24
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It's true in regards to the AI switching Wonder projects after you've rush built them out from under the computer. Even then, though, it announces when it nears completion (unless, as mentioned above, it's a Wonder that's less expensive than the lost one).

	05-04-2003 23:51									#25
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Surely the announcement is made two turns in advance to warn the human player? I see no other reason.

As for the AI cheating. Anything that makes the game more challening is fine with me. But I agree with you Gatekeeper, that when the human player exploits the loopholes it is less exciting... For example, I hate incremental buying; it's repetitive, mechanic and kills the fun of the game. But if I don't do it I can't go for early landings etc. It's a must in order to have a fair (?) chance on records or against other humans...

It's with great nostalgia that I dream about the times when the game was almost terra incognita and every game was completely absorbing... Winning the space race with a single size 1 city was completely unimaginable...

Carolus

	07-04-2003 11:57									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man That sounds Mac specific. In all the versions of Civ I've played (MGE, ToT, 2.42) on the PC, I always get a wonder warning from the AI. And if I rush the wonder, I can finish ahead of them, as I described above.

It must be Mac-specific. I've often had the AI build Wonders unannounced in the Mac version. But then, only in the Mac version will barbs destroy your capital city if it's your only city. In the PC version, I'm told, a single warrior can defend your capital against a zillion barbs if your capital is your only city.

	07-04-2003 21:52									#27
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quote: Originally posted by finbar In the PC version, I'm told, a single warrior can defend your capital against a zillion barbs if your capital is your only city.

Not just warriors...even zero-defense Diplomats will be too much for Barb artillery if they are in your only city.

	08-04-2003 01:13									#28
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After this became common knowledge, (the cap defend trick) One person, who shall remain nameless, missunderstood and assumed it worked against AI's too. He was shocked in a OCC game when his solo warrior lost and his capital was taken by a simple AI archer in the mid 20th century.

	08-04-2003 01:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by rah After this became common knowledge, (the cap defend trick) One person, who shall remain nameless, missunderstood and assumed it worked against AI's too. He was shocked in a OCC game when his solo warrior lost and his capital was taken by a simple AI archer in the mid 20th century.

That was one of Ming's?

	08-04-2003 02:11									#30
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I'd guess rah . if it was Ming, rah's post would've had some 's and a bunch of 's in it