23-03-2003 13:07									#1
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Very interesting story: http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID...21-023627-5923r

Excerpt:

quote: A group of American anti-war demonstrators who came to Iraq with Japanese human shield volunteers made it across the border today with 14 hours of uncensored video, all shot without Iraqi government minders present. Kenneth Joseph, a young American pastor with the Assyrian Church of the East, told UPI the trip "had shocked me back to reality." Some of the Iraqis he interviewed on camera "told me they would commit suicide if American bombing didn't start. They were willing to see their homes demolished to gain their freedom from Saddam's bloody tyranny. They convinced me that Saddam was a monster the likes of which the world had not seen since Stalin and Hitler. He and his sons are sick sadists. Their tales of slow torture and killing made me ill, such as people put in a huge shredder for plastic products, feet first so they could hear their screams as bodies got chewed up from foot to head."

I don't know anything about the UPI -- is it trustworthy?

	23-03-2003 13:10									#2
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UPI is one of the "smaller" news gathering organizations — along the lines of AP, Reuters, Gannet and Knight Ridder — but are trustworthy.

Gatekeeper

	23-03-2003 13:11									#3
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United Press International is what their acroynm stands for, I believe.

	23-03-2003 13:11									#4
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quote: I don't know anything about the UPI -- is it trustworthy?

Extremely. It's like the Associated Press or Reuters...

	23-03-2003 13:20									#5
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Maybe Gatekeeper can confirm this - some years ago, UPI was about to go into bankruptcy, as it had been in a major decline from it's heyday as the straight-up competition to AP.

Right before it went into BK, Pat Robertson either bought UPI itself, or it's existing archives, for about 6-7 million. I don't remember if it was all of UPI that was bought, and I don't know if there's still any connection.

One thing sounds extremely fishy about this story - though I don't doubt Hussein's every bit as bad as anyone says. Nobody, and I mean nobody, has been allowed in Iraq with video cameras and equipment, and been allowed to move about and film or interview people without government supervision, for years. The Iraqi government is all over these people, and even if they were naive fools, the Iraqi government intended to cynically use them, not trust them and have them cruise around with video cameras and tape.

	23-03-2003 13:21									#6
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That just doesn't sound like something human shields would say. But maybe.

I was going to post a troll response here, but thought better of it. Apparantly the Apolyton regime is worse than Saddam's

	23-03-2003 13:25									#7
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MtG, if Pat Robertson has ANYTHING to do with these tapes...

...Oh, who am I kidding? I can't POSSIBLY hate him more than I already do.

Seriously, I certainly hope that these tapes are genuinely objective and unbiased.

	23-03-2003 13:26									#8
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why would they be biased? Based on the statements in the opening post. It's not something you would expect anti-war people to say. That is why I have my doubts.

	23-03-2003 13:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat ... Nobody, and I mean nobody, has been allowed in Iraq with video cameras and equipment, and been allowed to move about and film or interview people without government supervision, for years. The Iraqi government is all over these people, and even if they were naive fools, the Iraqi government intended to cynically use them, not trust them and have them cruise around with video cameras and tape.

A Norwegian freelance reporter in Bagdad is giving a lot of first-hand information on Swedish TV these days. She said that her US/UK/Canada collegues etc are followed by government officals in every step they take, but that she and other reporters from smaller language groups could move more freely.

	23-03-2003 13:28									#10
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What tapes?

If anyone had 14 hours of uncensored, unsupervised interviews with Iraqis in the street, that would be worth a goldmine to somebody, or lots of somebodies - news footage like that hasn't been available for years.

	23-03-2003 13:31									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre A Norwegian freelance reporter in Bagdad is giving a lot of first-hand information on Swedish TV these days. She said that her US/UK/Canada collegues etc are followed by government officals in every step they take, but that she and other reporters from smaller language groups could move more freely.

How about interviews with Iraqi citizens? That's been the thing really tightly controlled by the Iraqis, even in the Arabic press. Being able to move around and film "stuff" has been less of a problem.

	23-03-2003 13:38									#12
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat What tapes? If anyone had 14 hours of uncensored, unsupervised interviews with Iraqis in the street, that would be worth a goldmine to somebody, or lots of somebodies - news footage like that hasn't been available for years.

Hello, that's what this thread is about.

Very first sentence of the excerpt provided by Asher.

	23-03-2003 14:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat How about interviews with Iraqi citizens? That's been the thing really tightly controlled by the Iraqis, even in the Arabic press. Being able to move around and film "stuff" has been less of a problem.

At least she had been talking to victims wounded in the air raids. She also reported that most of them had minor injuries from shrapnel. Her theory was that most of the wounded was hit by debris from Iraqi flak an AA missiles, not by US bombs.

	23-03-2003 14:52									#14
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MtG:

Hmm ... off the top of my head, I do believe it *was* UPI that had financial issues. For some reason, I keep thinking than the Rev. Sun Moon (sp) of the "Moonies" purchased it outright or at least a percentage of it. I know the man owns one of the major newspapers in Washington, D.C., and that Helen (she's one of the senior correspondents you see giving Ari Fleischer grief at nearly every White House press briefing) quit over it, for fear that UPI's credibility would be destroyed by Moon. Somehow UPI, Moon, and the Washington Times (?) are all tied together, or were.

What's for certain, though, is that UPI's significance has shrunk. It's now almost an also-ran ... but once in a blue moon or two, they move utterly fascinating articles.

Gatekeeper

	24-03-2003 03:50									#15
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It should be noted that traditional military targets do include government buildings, railyards, airports, communications systems (television & radio stations), military & civilian police stations and power stations.

I mentioned this to an American I'm currently working with, who suggested that Iraqi military were purposely hiding in civilian areas. I pointed out that the building we were in at the time contained government offices and was across the street from the city's main rail station.

	24-03-2003 04:07									#16
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BTW this is from the human shields according to independant Media Center

Rosemarie Gillespie is part of a group of 14 international Human Shields at the 7th of April Water Treatment Plant, on the Tigris River, in the suburbs of Baghdad. She reports: "We had a big raid last night. Very intense. Some hit close to us. I think they are aiming at the bridges. It seems that I slept through some of the bombing last night. (Thursday) After a while you get used to it. It only wakes you up if it is close or right on top of you. I did an interview with Derryn Hinch this morning and got an idea of the type of bullshit that is being pushed out through the commercial media."

Also reporting in from Electronic Iraq, a Voices in the Wilderness and Electronic Intifada project, is Wade Hudson: "It's a little before 2 AM. There hasn't been any bombing for the last 2-3 hours. I'm not even sure of the date I don't have my watch on me. I think it's the 22nd. We've been through the heaviest bombardment of the war so far."

	24-03-2003 04:16									#17
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and this "

Fine. We had a big raid last nite. Very intense. Some hit close to us. I think they are aiming at the bridges. (Rosemarie Gillespie is part of a group of now 14 internationals, including two Australians, Human Shields, at the 7th of April Water Treatment Plant, on the Tigris River, in the suburbs of Baghdad. See also RRs DU, and previous. The Water Treatment Plant is a few hundred meters from the river.)

R: I can't tell if they've hit bridges, but they lit a very large fire, there was lots of smoke and could see the red glow of the flames, but after some hours it was extinguished. There's no more fire, no smoke, but before the smoke filled the sky. (Pause.. looking ?) The fire is out.

Q: Casualties ?

R: Some. Some houses, Civilians, Children, dead. But (at 7 am) have no figures, no confirmed figures.

Q The Internationals ? The Human Shields ?

R: As far as I know, all OK. At the Palestine Hotel (HQ of the Human Shields) -- there's broken glass..

Q: Your plans ?

R: We'll stay.

M: The media here, and American, report the war is almost "won", Hussein is dead, wounded, or not, the Americans are advancing almost at will.

R: (Laughs) That's a big lie. There's stiff resistance.(see earlier email, below).

R: I'm hearing Anti-Aircraft fire now. have to listen. yes. (An hour later, around 8 am Baghdad time, as ABC reporter TM spoke with Rosemarie, there were "explosions" near by).

============

MW: I received your first email from Friday evening, did you send the second ?

R: Not yet. I have to go to town to email. What with the bombing, nothing's certain.

M I'll send out your first one now. Won't wait for the second.


21 MARCH UPDATE


To:

Sent: Friday, March 21, 2003 8:44 PM

Dear Max:

The email connection is open again - hooray! Today's email will be in two parts, what I will send now which you should receive before 10pm your time, the rest will come later and should be there when you wake up tomorrow morning.

It seems that I slept through some of the bombing last night. (Thursday) After a while you get used to it. It only wakes you up if it is close or right on top of you. I did an interview with Derryn Hinch this morning and got an idea of the type of bullshit that is being pushed out through the commercial media. Please, when you have time, could you send an email outlining the claims Bush and Howard are making to try to justify their actions, eg that they are coming to liberate the Iraqis, that the human shields are traitors, etc, etc. This will make it easier at our end to prepare our rebuttals. Please send all emails to me at the Human Shields email address: a and include my name in the title of the document you send to that address.

Bush believes his own bullshit. So does Howard. Eventually their bullshit will be washed away with the rivers of time. In the meantime:

edited to remove e-mails

	24-03-2003 05:16									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident why would they be biased? Based on the statements in the opening post. It's not something you would expect anti-war people to say. That is why I have my doubts.

Everything is biased, one way or another.
The pro-war lobby will probably use it as some form of justification and the anti-war lot will claim that those who brought it out faked it or were never anti-war to begin with. Don't expect too much to come from it.

	24-03-2003 06:39									#19
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It wouldn't surprise me if it were true. There's a lot of naivety on both sides of the fence.

	24-03-2003 06:50									#20
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Some anti-war people are so because they are genuinely concerned with their fellow humans. The interviewed guy is a priest, and he may have thought the war would bring more horrors than Saddam regime. He may have changed his mind listening to these people. He also may remain anti-war, but with the knowledge of how horrible Saddam is.

	24-03-2003 06:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper MtG: Hmm ... off the top of my head, I do believe it *was* UPI that had financial issues. For some reason, I keep thinking than the Rev. Sun Moon (sp) of the "Moonies" purchased it outright or at least a percentage of it. Gatekeeper

You are correct. UPI is owned by the Rev. Moon.

http://www.mediachannel.org/originals/upi-moon.shtml

Edit: He also created and owns the Washington Times.

	24-03-2003 07:02									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Static Universe You are correct. UPI is owned by the Rev. Moon. http://www.mediachannel.org/originals/upi-moon.shtml Edit: He also created and owns the Washington Times.

Wow, that's actually a little frightening. Thanks for the link. So much for the credibility of that story!

	24-03-2003 07:07									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Wow, that's actually a little frightening. Thanks for the link. So much for the credibility of that story!

It's very frightening, as Moon is a major player in the American media, and his name is so seldom heard in this regard.

Interestingly, Ronald Reagan once called the Washington Times his "favorite newspaper" and George Bush I has been paid to deliver speeches for the Moonies. Yet when does Moon's name come up? Almost never.

	25-03-2003 08:34									#24
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Whether the story is completely factual or not, is it so hard to believe that there are Iraqi citizens who loathe Saddam's regime so much that they are praying for the Americans to move in quickly? I don't find that hard to believe at all.

	25-03-2003 08:40									#25
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It is very believeable, and I doubt anybody here will say the Iraqis support Saddam. I doubt anybody here will say the pictures of overjoyed Iraqis kicking Saddam's portraits were a fake.
However, all Iraqis aren't similar. Some will actively help the USUKian liberators, some will fight the USUKian invaders to the bitter end, and most will simply try to save their hides both from Saddam and from the USUKian troops.

If the war is swift and successful, you can expect many more peolple waving the American flag. If the war goes bad, you can expect USUKians will recieve a very cold welcome in many villages.

	25-03-2003 08:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Whether the story is completely factual or not, is it so hard to believe that there are Iraqi citizens who loathe Saddam's regime so much that they are praying for the Americans to move in quickly? I don't find that hard to believe at all.

No, but that isn't really relevant. I'm sure there are some Americans who loathe Bush enough they'd be willing to see a foreign power come in and oust him to facilitate "regime change." That doesn't justify another nation's bombing DC.

	25-03-2003 08:47									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No, but that isn't really relevant. I'm sure there are some Americans who loathe Bush enough they'd be willing to see a foreign power come in and oust him to facilitate "regime change." That doesn't justify another nation's bombing DC.

Are you trying to equate Bush to Saddam? There's no comparison as far as I'm concerned.

	25-03-2003 08:54									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Caligastia Are you trying to equate Bush to Saddam? There's no comparison as far as I'm concerned.

No. Refrain from straw men, please. I just pointed out that finding individuals willing to see their leader ousted by force doesn't really mean much in and of itself.

	25-03-2003 09:06									#29
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I think the idea was many people must have had similar messages (indeed, probably the majority) for a person who went to Iraq as a human shield to be "shocked back to reality" and change their position on the war.

I think a lot of the anti-War people underestimate how much Saddam is hated in his country. Yes, some people like him/don't mind him, but from everything I've seen the vast majority of people hate him and would welcome liberation. Which would probably be why this human shield changed their mind, they didn't understand the scope of the hatred of Saddam.

	25-03-2003 09:08									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov No. Refrain from straw men, please. I just pointed out that finding individuals willing to see their leader ousted by force doesn't really mean much in and of itself.

I think it says something if a significant portion of the population of Iraq would prefer US leadership to Saddam, and I think most of them would. Lets face it, whatever the US does once it takes control of Iraq is going to be 1000 times better than Saddam.