10-01-2000 06:03									#1
	Mod Idea: fix Fundamentalism Inflate your Upload Space

It's about time to do something about Fundy. Forget Free Market, Fundamentalism is the WORST SE choice in the game in my humble opinion. I myself once believed Free Market was too limiting, but I relized that the +2 Economy was a pretty tremedous benefit indeed. But Fundamentalism has very few redeeming qualities to offset it's -2 Research penalty. Also the existence of it doesn't really make much sense either. Think about it, there is no other faction except Mariam whose ideology would include setting up a fundamentalist government except Cha Dawn. Fundamentalism seems to exist for the sake of one faction, Mariam. And fundamentalism is more a value system than it is a form of government. In fact in my SMAC2 and SMACX2 modpacks I've eliminated Fundamentalism and replaced it with the cultism social choice. Cultism is a form of government where the people unite behind a leader who claims himself to be the future, or the one destined to rule. Cultism can fit in the ideological mythos of several factions, while Fundamentalism only fits into the mythos of the religious factions(only Mariam really because it seems the Fundamentalism is made to be rule by a CHRISTIANITY. So there are no Muslims or Jews on Alpha Centauri?) My cultist SE(which I'm trying to think of a better name, cultism doesn't sound quite right) could be used by many groups, as both a good thing and a bad thing. Cultism could be used by a manipulative leader that is trying to brainwash his population into serving him/her. Or it could be adopted by a great leader, whose charisma, benevolence, and command presence inspires a sense of awe into his/her people. But that is only for my mod, what are we going to do about "real" SMAC? Fundamentalism is the least attractive political choice in the game. I usually use Democracy, and sometimes Police State, I never, NEVER use Fundy, ever. It's morale bonus can easily be duplicated with social engineering, and it's probe bonus isn't worth giving up the extra growth and efficiency of Democracy, and the support bonus of police state. And the probe bonus only makes half sense. Sure religion will decrease the chance of an enemy brainwashing your population, but how does religion make it easier for your spies to carry out acts of sabotage, and espionage? The game doesn't give any incentives for fundamentalism unlike Civ 2.

Let it be known that I'm not a fan of Civ 2's fundy either. I hate how it portrays religion as evil. Fundy governments are the only governments that can produce fanatic terrorists? Fundy allows nations to get away with nuclear atrocities becuase the other nations expect no better from you. But on the other hand it offers some neat benefits that aren't present in SMAC. 10 support free units, tithe, and no unhappy citizens. Well the unhappy citizens part is unrealistic, there's no way you're going to convince me that the entire population of Talliban Afganistan is content. But Civ2's fundy has some incentive to use it(though I don't use fundy in that game either.)

I think a great mod would be to combine the benefits of both SMAC's and Civ 2's fundy's.
How about this:
+2 MORALE
+3 TALENT {Though not everyone is content, religion does quell some dissent in the nation}
+2 PROBE
-4 RESEARCH: {Greater penalty to offset the Talent bonus}

how about that?

And on a final note, in CIV3 and SMAC2(if there is one) Fundamentalism should NOT be a form of government, it should be a system of values. The should be a religion value choice or something like that. That way you could have a religious democracy, and Mariam wouldn't bother you simply becuase you are using a democratic form of government.

	10-01-2000 12:14									#2
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I agree completely about the fact that it isn't a form of government and is unfairly portrayed as evil (not to mention unbalenced in Civ2)I actually got rid of it in a mod I made recently, and I added a military dictatorship, for the very reason that fundamentalist governments of all types existed: A Republic/Democracy like Iran, dictatorship like Afganistan or Cromwellian England, etc, etc, so yes, good job bringing up something major that needs to be fixed and kept out/

	10-01-2000 13:24									#3
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quote: Originally posted by mikejohnson1 on 01-09-2000 08:03 PM My cultist SE(which I'm trying to think of a better name, cultism doesn't sound quite right)

Perhaps monocracy? Roughly "Rule by one", covers everything from cults of personality to monarchies. Examples of monocracies include French royal absolutism, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Stalin's USSR.

And if you're going to call it "monocracy", I'd replace "Police State" with Bureaucracy. Examples include the post-Stalin USSR, Imperial China, modern Japan (despite the Diet), and the Roman Catholic Church.

	11-01-2000 02:03									#4
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I quite agree about the Fundamentalism SE choice being next to useless. Here's what I put in my SNAX modpack to be released soon: change Fund. to:

Frontier, None,
Police State, DocLoy, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT, --EFFIC
Democratic, EthCalc, ++EFFIC, ++GROWTH, --SUPPORT
Theocratic, Brain, ++MORALE, +PROBE, -RESEARCH, -ECONOMY

As Theocracies (governments ruled by a religious order, like Vatican City, for example, or some middle-eastern countries) would have less research, yes, put not as crippling as Fundamentalism. A ++PROBE is too powerful in my view for Miriam, so it gets a +PROBE only, as a relgious government would get a slight but not an overwhelming advantage in spying and subversion. As far as the -ECONOMY, well, most nations hesitate to establish extended trade relations to a country that may very well bite the hand that feeds them at any moment over a religious issue, and their infrastructure is simply not geared to handle a large western-style economy due to religious prohibitions of what can and cannot be sold.


While I'm at it, another SNAX mod change I made was to that other least desirable SE choice, Free Market. It simply made more sense to change it to:

Free Market, IndEcon, ++ECONOMY, ----PLANET, ---POLICE


The original -5 Police is WAY to harsh for anyone using it. By bumping up PLANET from -3 to -4, the faction now has a -40% to psi warfare, making it increasingly vulnerable to Mind Worm attack, which I think balances things out nicely.

	11-01-2000 14:19									#5
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Just a minor note:

Rule by one is called an autocracy, I don't know why they used auto instead of mono, they just did

	12-01-2000 10:06									#6
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Best term could be "Caesarism" which was what O. Spengler predicted to be the number one goverement type of future.

	12-01-2000 12:31									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk on 01-11-2000 04:19 AM Rule by one is called an autocracy, I don't know why they used auto instead of mono, they just did

Actually, monocracy is an accepted, if more rarely used, synonym for autocracy. Another synonym is autarchy, often confused with autarky (which denotes national self-sufficiency in production). Monarchy was originally a fourth synonym, but its meaning has drifted in English.

So autarchs, monocrats, and autocrats are all the same type of ruler, and what the rule can interchangably be be called autarchies, monocracies, and autocracies. I personally usually use "monocracy" because it better avoids unintentional confusion with autarky.

	13-01-2000 04:53									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

When I used to play Civ 1 or 2, I used to never use Fundy, it cripled the science department. Instead, I used the Fascist patch since it was a government that made sense in the warmongering game of CIV. Sure you could create dozens of units and not have to pay for their upkeep with Fundy, but you could not keep up with the Democracies and Republics technologically, but with Fascism you still keep up fairly well with the Dems and Repubs with science. I would like it changed to Fascism.

	18-01-2000 02:01									#9
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Fundamentalism can actually be used fro other factions than the Belivers. The Spartans could use it to boost their Morale to +2. When they originally use Power they have +3 Morale. Using Fundy you can make it +4 Morale. Who is fearsome now ?

I did that in a game I was playing. You can also use it if your the Gaians. To raise your Morale from -1 to 0. You can use it during wartime to give your guys ggod morlae.

Peace
Democracy/Planned/Knowledge

War
Fundamentalist/Planned/Power

You see what I mean. Alos if you have trouble with the Data Angels or with the Beleivers. Or anybody's probe teams. You can use it to boost your security. I've played the Believers lots of times before. And the -4 Research just doesn't seem to matter as time wears on. -2 doesn't seem as bad. The Drones have that.

And as to the fact that it is only suited for Miriam. Other factions can use it. Santaigo and Deirdre can boost their Morale with it. Anyone using Knwoledge can use it to offset their Probe penalty (Yes I know it basically kills your Research bonus though).

So all around if used in the right way Fundy can be a good government.

	12-03-2000 04:16									#10
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For Fundamentalism how about this
+1 Morale ( Soldiers on "crusade" will fight harder)
+2 Probe ( Better spying )
-1 Research ( Science in low regard )
-1 Economy (Less interest in making money)

This will make Fundy a little more usable

	13-03-2000 15:25									#11
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Fundy IS better than Police State. Wrost thing about Police is -2 effic. It leads to huge drone problems on Transcend. Power IMO is better for support in war time even w/ -2 industry. Demo with -2 support is just pain when it goes to wars.
+1 morale is the same as +2 if you attack. If you defend that extra morale is not big deal coz' of attack/defense bonus.
+2 probe is real bonus of Fundy. Change to Fundy and simple scout is 100+EC to bribe. Will you buy enemy troops that so costly? I think not.
Moreover, better effic compare to Police means you have more energy. If you like your science don't worry about Fundy but be sure to lose Probes and be treatened by Probes.
Yes, it seems like it was designed for Miriam but why Miriam has +1 probe and -2 research. Coz' with Fundy she can easy get any tech from others.
Hive and UoP are better w/ Police but Miriam and Morgan are better under Fundy. Morgan under Fundy/Green-FM/Wealth is huge headache with all his money and tons of elite probes. Don't underestimate Fundy.

About reality. This is a game w/ limited abilities. It's impossible to introduce all present forms of goverment or specify them correctly. TBSs are made for balance gameplay and shouldn't be a mirror of reality 1:1. If it did it would be near 10 different options to choose like goverment, economics, values, religion, philosphy etc. This is a game. Nothing more.

P.S. Spartans have +2 morale and dont need bot Fundy and Power to get +4 morale. IMO Police is better for Spartans coz' +3 police doubles police strength of troops.

	04-05-2000 13:19									#12
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--Bump--