02-04-2003 03:43									#421
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Best space combat was in the Nadeshiko.

Ships wasn't brawling with each other. It is interesting what could be done with few cuts. Tactic was reasonable. Just you can't view Year of hell (was it name of that ST voyager episode?) again after seeing Nadeshiko 24-26 episodes. Too much hiting head to the table, and then run to view Nadeshiko.

	02-04-2003 03:47									#422
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc According to Krammerman, stormtrooper armor is immune to ballistic weapons, so why would they care what the teddy bears wear firing?

Arrows are piercing weapons.
Armor tailored to low size kinetic projectiles would have hard time, as Spain's troops discovered in latin Amerika.

	02-04-2003 05:36									#423
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Does the Duneverse say anyting about space Combat? Cause if the Empire, B5 forces, or ST ships can control the araes between planets then Dune has no chance, spcially once planetkillers come into play.

	02-04-2003 05:41									#424
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quote: Does the Duneverse say anyting about space Combat?

Space travel in general is extremely vague in the Dune series, so it's hard to come to any conclusions about the capabilities of Dune forces in space combat. However, I'm sure I could dig up some favorable info, call it "canon" and argue till my face turns blue. It certainly has worked for others on this thread...

	02-04-2003 05:42									#425
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GePap, Dune says Jack diddly about space Combat. In the later books there was a weapon that seemed to have the SW/First Ones "Scorching the Planet" effect, but that was late in the game, with there being no unified political system anyway.

	02-04-2003 05:45									#426
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Space travel in general is extremely vague in the Dune series, so it's hard to come to any conclusions about the capabilities of Dune forces in space combat. However, I'm sure I could dig up some favorable info, call it "canon" and argue till my face turns blue. It certainly has worked for others on this thread...

Well, i just go by TV episodes and movies I have seen.

And from what I have seen, go First ones! (I have read about much more powerful forcs, but they are not privy to the discussion).

	02-04-2003 05:55									#427
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quote: GePap, Dune says Jack diddly about space Combat. In the later books there was a weapon that seemed to have the SW/First Ones "Scorching the Planet" effect, but that was late in the game, with there being no unified political system anyway.

The later Dune books are just as relevant (if not more so) than all the Extended Universe crap that has been trotted out by Boris and other SW groupies. At least the later Dune books were written by the original creator of the series.

The later books really do suck, however...

	02-04-2003 06:34									#428
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Does the Duneverse say anyting about space Combat? Cause if the Empire, B5 forces, or ST ships can control the araes between planets then Dune has no chance, spcially once planetkillers come into play.

No ships could destroy planet and disapear without trace. You would never know who did it. No ships could hide in normal space and wait on its prey. This means ST or SW would have no chance for control the areas between planets.
You should know that Bio weapons in Dune was common, infiltration of opponents too. And worst news is that population in Dune was after several hundred years of genetical modifications and breeding experiments.
Guess who would have best Jedi after few centuries. (and who would calmly wait few centuries for any chance)


"no ship" is name of type of advanced ships in Dune.

	02-04-2003 06:49									#429
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quote: "no ship" is name of type of advanced ships in Dune.

The "no-ships" were designed to be invisible to the prescient sight of certain groups, particularly the descendants of Muad Dib. I don't know if there is any evidence that they were equally invisible to the normal methods of detection that the ST, SW and B5 forces would use. Herbert never dealt with space travel in much detail; he was far more interested in the philosophy of his world than the actual technology.

	02-04-2003 06:55									#430
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Dune? Good lord, Heinlein sucked at science. Niven's Known Universe is far better.

	02-04-2003 06:57									#431
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Heinlein didn't write Dune, genius...

edit: Jesus, I even mentioned Herbert's name in the post right before yours. How stupid are you?

	02-04-2003 07:48									#433
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Niven's Known Universe is far better.

I like the known universe, but Niven got himself stuck with that stupid "luck" gene bit. We also never learn enough about this other race the Kzin were fighting.

And the whole ringworld, protector angle is not covered enough.

Brin's Uplift universe is just as interesting, with more innovative ideas.

And B5 still mops the floor with SW, or ST!

	02-04-2003 07:54									#434
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quote: And B5 still mops the floor with SW, or ST!

But not Dune...

	02-04-2003 07:58									#435
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The Dune universe was wisely left out of the poll....

	02-04-2003 12:30									#436
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quote: The "no-ships" were designed to be invisible to the prescient sight of certain groups, particularly the descendants of Muad Dib. I don't know if there is any evidence that they were equally invisible to the normal methods of detection that the ST, SW and B5 forces would use. Herbert never dealt with space travel in much detail; he was far more interested in the philosophy of his world than the actual technology.

The "no-ship" was originally designed to be invisible to absically everything; it was built by the Harkonnens so as to be able to touch off a war withotu their being implicated. The only it didn't become a standard weapon was that the technology was lost due tot he destruction of the only no-ship built and later the designs of it.

quote: Does the Duneverse say anyting about space Combat? Cause if the Empire, B5 forces, or ST ships can control the araes between planets then Dune has no chance, spcially once planetkillers come into play.

I don't think it was ever specifically meantioned (it certainly never occurred in the books that I've read), however, it does happen. I'm not really sure how effective it would be against the Empire or Federation, though; all the weapons were designed to cause the minimum amount of collateral damage so as to avoid breaching the rules of war.

Anyway, if the only objective of the Dunians was to cause as much damage as possible, blowing up Arrakis wouldn't sotp them; they could jsut load their ships up with spice and send them out to attack as many crucial planets as they could. and I expect they'd get quite a lot; pretty mcuhe very major Noble House had enough atmoics to destroy at least 50 other planets, and IIRC, House Corrina had the same amount as everyone else combined. Rather a lot of ruined worlds...

	02-04-2003 12:31									#437
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quote: Also, for the guys wihout armor: why would they, of all people, follow the furballs into the forest? Why not retreat into the inpenetrable bunker behind them? Also, don't stormtroopers have those cute plastic bands we use today to secure prisoners? why are their hands free? And you still have not addressed the question of kill zones: why on earth would they need to go deep into the forest, when all they have to do is blast a fire zone aorund them?

All of these things can be answered by the following (in desecending order, give or take, tho its late and im not really thinking about it too hard).

1) hubris on part of the imperial commanders

2) poor judgement by Imperials and dumb luck in favor (the Force works in mysterious ways ) of the Rebels

3) fog of war

4) infamiliarity both with the terrain and the local species (had no idea what an ewok was, didnt know they were merely paleolithic in tech, nor their physical limitations)

5) preoccupation of Imperial assets by the main rebel onslaught in orbit, and forces around the bunker werent sure if all the Rebels in the ground force had been found... didnt know if anymore were still lurking.

:. this was a devestating and disasterous military blunder for the Imperials. One cannot begin to judge any military machine on the events of a single or small number of events, however. As i said before, for every poor military action, such as this, there are innumerable victories.
Im sure it wouldnt be hard to find some Federation blunder... tho im not nearly as well versed in ST as I am in SW.

	02-04-2003 12:42									#438
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6) George Lucas started smoking crack

every time I watch return of the Jedi, the whole loss on the surface of the planet absolutely infuriates me

an ewok hits himself with a rock and only stuns himself, while if that rock had of hit the storm trooper it would have killed him! it would have been one thing if they had of been faced with angry wookies, but ewoks? arrrg!

especially since it was against the best imperial troops in the galaxy
arrrrrrg!

and they were expecting the rebels and had set an ambush for them
arrrrrrrrrg!

here's what i wonder, why doesn't the guy who told how much energy it would take to blow up the asteriod, tell how strong the AT ST armor is, considering the tree took that one out

	02-04-2003 23:17									#439
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Kramerman:

If the commanders of imperial forces have such hubris, it is an easy weapon to use against them.

Now, i am not arguing the side of some red-shirted star fleet yoeman. But B5 Erathforce marines would certainly kick Imperial but, and that is not even going into what the Shadows of Vorlons could do to them is they decided for some reason to fight on foot.

As Korn said: two longs launched from two sides destroy an AT-ST. Another one slips on LOGS! for gods sake, LOGS!. Why give these things "legs" if they are contantly the design feature that leads to their destruction? What to give a beter viewpoint? With modern senros, what the pilot can see from inside should be meaningless. The equipment of the Republican clone army in episode 2 is better desgned and more effectie than the Imperial equipment. At least they can think of air support and mobility.

	03-04-2003 00:10									#440
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GePap, the EarthForce Marines always seem to get the stuffing knocked out of them though.

	03-04-2003 00:15									#441
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Again, your assumption is that the center of the SW galaxy must be identical to our own, and that is simply not the case. I don't think you can prove no such galactic centers are in existence, can you? The point of these debates (and they are in fun, guys), is to say "that one is unrealistic!" THey're ALL unrealistic! ST has as much ludicrous, impossible feats as anything. Transporters? The Q? In these arguments, you have to accept what happens as canon and work backwards. If it happens on the screen, it means it is "real." If it says so in a book, and it isn't contradicted by what's on the screen, it is "real." Saying it's unfair that Lucas has more imagination than ST writers for fantastic technologies is simply silly. After all, as Arthur C. Clarke said, any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic.

Any "sufficiently advanced technology" will be distinguishable from pure fantasy. ST starts with reality and fictionalizes it to absurdity, while SW starts with a fantasy and puts it in a "sci-fi" setting.

You see, I can prove that no such spiral galactic centers exist. Any exception, however distant and vague the image, would stand out and grab astronomers' attention. We'd know about it, 'cause there would be pictures on APOD.

There are elliptical galaxies that are, in essence nearly naked cores of spirals, some scaled up to hundreds of times as large as our galaxy. Those exude such huge amounts of radiation that nothing could live within a million ly. Small ones, such as Andromeda's satellite galaxy m32 are believed to be tiny spirals stripped of its arms. Others, such as satellite galaxy m110, have a large halo that could have habitable systems. But they all have Shapley zones.

Andromeda with m33 below and m110 above


There are small irregulars, like Milky Way's satellites, the Magellanic clouds. They can't be anywhere near as big as a full grown spiral without assuming the gravitationally dictated shapes of either a spiral or an eliptical.

There are large, irregular galaxies. They are consistently the result of galactic "collisions" and are hotbeds of stellar birth and death, irradiated throughout to the point that no life could evolve. By the time stellar activity settles to a reasonable level the galaxy either drifts apart or assumes spiral/eliptical qualities.

All types of spiral galaxies have 2 things in common: the spiral arms and the "hot" center. It is a gravitational necessity. Choose to rewrite fundamentals of physics and you can have your low-density Lucas-spittle galactic core. But then their physics wouldn't come with them once they arrived here, so their ships and weapons and midichlorians stop working.

Feds clean up in a trice, wondering why the idiots spent so much effort building tech that didn't work, and how they got here in the first place. Heck, the fools asphyxiate in their dead ships before anybody discovers they have arrived. Nothing left but gigatons of salvage.

"Stellar Cartography Outpost 62C has detected a huge wormhole opening in the Phrblath sector. Can we schedule an expeditionary force at the next opportunity, sir?"

"Well, it'll be next month before a Fleet will be available. Due to the possibility of hostiles we won't allow detached ships or civilians to investigate alone; quarantine the sector except for direct transits to the populated planets."

[later]
"Hmmm, some of them look human. They have interesting materials science. Some can't possibly have been constructed by everything we know of natural, subspace, and temporal physics. Wherever they came from is too different. This is gonna take a new book, not just another page in the old unknown particle/ray of the week journal."

	03-04-2003 00:20									#442
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 6) George Lucas started smoking crack

	03-04-2003 01:26									#443
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar GePap, the EarthForce Marines always seem to get the stuffing knocked out of them though.

Not really: the first mission we see them in, they win, though with significant casualties. We do see marines try to take B5 butt hey are fighting in vary limited space, and they are ebate back by narns and other earthforce security forces. And if they lose to the Mimbari is because they have more advanced tech.

	03-04-2003 01:56									#444
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quote: GePap, the EarthForce Marines always seem to get the stuffing knocked out of them though.

You can't say the same thing about Fremen and Sardaukar, however...

Dune!!!

	03-04-2003 06:38									#445
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Kramerman: If the commanders of imperial forces have such hubris, it is an easy weapon to use against them. Now, i am not arguing the side of some red-shirted star fleet yoeman. But B5 Erathforce marines would certainly kick Imperial but, and that is not even going into what the Shadows of Vorlons could do to them is they decided for some reason to fight on foot. As Korn said: two longs launched from two sides destroy an AT-ST. Another one slips on LOGS! for gods sake, LOGS!. Why give these things "legs" if they are contantly the design feature that leads to their destruction? What to give a beter viewpoint? With modern senros, what the pilot can see from inside should be meaningless. The equipment of the Republican clone army in episode 2 is better desgned and more effectie than the Imperial equipment. At least they can think of air support and mobility.

I cannot argue about earthforce marines, dont know anything about them, so i can form a judgement on weather they are superior to Imps or not

	03-04-2003 06:52									#446
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Well, since in the B5 universe earth is not that advanced, earthforce marines are basically like US marines (smae doctrine, so forth) with equipment from the 23rd century (B5 takes place in 2258-2262)

	03-04-2003 10:33									#447
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here's a question for you star wars buffs

ok i found the Return of the Jedi screenplay
http://usuarios.lycos.es/driucatala...eline/ep6se.doc

quote: The Emperor gets down from his throne and walks up very close to Luke. The Emperor looks into his eyes and, for the first time, Luke can perceive the evil visage within the hood. EMPEROR: Oh no, my young Jedi. You will find that it is you who are mistaken...about a great many things. VADER: His lightsaber. Vader extends a gloved hand toward the Emperor, revealing Luke's lightsaber. The Emperor takes it. EMPEROR: Ah, yes, a Jedi's weapon. Much like your father's. By now you must know your father can never be turned from the dark side. So will it be with you. LUKE: You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead...and you with me. The Emperor laughs. EMPEROR: Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet. Luke looks up sharply. EMPEROR: Yes...I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here. LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness. Vader looks at Luke. EMPEROR: Your faith in your friends is yours. VADER: It is pointless to resist, my son. The Emperor turns to face Luke. EMPEROR: (angry) Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design. (indicates Endor) Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon... Luke reacts. The Emperor notes it. EMPEROR: (con’t) ...are walking into a trap. As is your Rebel fleet. It was I who allowed the Alliance to know the location of the shield generator. It is quite safe from your pitiful little band. An entire legion of my best troops awaits them. Luke's look darts from the Emperor to Vader and, finally, to the sword in the Emperor's hand. EMPEROR: Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive. And that is just the beginning of my surprise – but, of course, I don’t wish to spoil it for you

just exactly how many stromtroopers are in a legion? would it have been more than the number they used to assault Hoth with? I mean on Hoth run of the mill storm troopers completely overwhelmed dug in defenders in a hastily planned assault on a target of oppertunity...on ender the storm troopers already knew well in advance that rebel forces were planning to sabataouge the shield generator, and they had orders to prevent that, so how could they have possibly lost? i mean on hoth the rebels even had air superiority

rocks and spears shouldn't harm storm troopers while their blaster rifles should fry ewoks...

george lucas really messed up

	03-04-2003 10:43									#448
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 ...on ender the storm troopers already knew well in advance that rebel forces were planning to sabataouge the shield generator, and they had orders to prevent that, so how could they have possibly lost? rocks and spears shouldn't harm storm troopers while their blaster rifles should fry ewoks...

A possible answer (just throwing this out there):

quote: LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness.

while,

quote: EMPEROR: Your faith in your friends is yours.

actually the faith turned out to be Luke's and the Alliances's strength, not there weakness, unfortunately for the Emperor, however, Luke was right....

quote: george lucas really messed up

Touche
What happened on Endor is virtually impossible by all practical means. How the rebels won is rediculous to me... oh well, to fix plot holes like these, I always just say "the Force works in mysterious ways..."

	03-04-2003 10:56									#449
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kman,

quote: What happened on Endor is virtually impossible by all practical means. How the rebels won is rediculous to me... oh well, to fix plot holes like these, I always just say "the Force works in mysterious ways

yea i should take a chill pill about RotJ, but I mean this is worse than a deus ex machina(sp?) i mean as cheesy as batman (the tv show) was at least you can go, oh ok, he had on bat thermal underware for some reason in the middle of july and that's why mr. freeze's cold ray didn't do anything to him, but GL didn't even give us that

here's what we know from the movies

battle droids > gugans(sp?)
clone troopers > battle droids
strom troopers = clone troopers
storm troopers > alliance troops on hoth
elite storm troopers < C3PO worshipping teddy bears

i mean gugans had better military organization and technology than the ewoks, but it didn't take much for the battle droids to defeat them, and the forerunners of storm troopers defeated hordes of battle droids

i mean there was no justification why they would win, not even a really crappy one, except that rocks kill storm troopers, and ewoks are blasterproof

	03-04-2003 11:07									#450
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quote: i mean there was no justification why they would win, not even a really crappy one, except that rocks kill storm troopers, and ewoks are blasterproof

side note of interest (or not)

In the SW d20 RPG, my players made an expidition to Endor to obtain the mysterious "Ewok Rocks".... They do 1d4 + 20 damage against Storm Troopers (ignores ST armor damage reduction).

Before we began and they were generating characters, I promised them that I would allow one Ewok (id have to patch some pretty mean plot holes due to SW 'canon'), and that one Ewok would never die. He could go near death, be captured, or whatever, but he would never die... I did this cause i really wanted an Ewok to play cause i have fond memories of them as a child... none of them accepted the deal.