31-03-2003 09:57									#361
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't know who would win (i think star trek). I'm fan of both but i prefer star trek because it feels more realistic.
I don't choose my favourite sci-fi based on ''which has the biggest ship'' but on ''which is more realistic and intelligent'', and that is Star Trek.
However i noticed some guys here are taking this too serious and give scientific facts, and examples and forget this is just the imagination of someone and is not something to be taken serious.

	31-03-2003 10:42									#362
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

*hums Imperial March*

Attachment: starwars001.jpg
This has been downloaded 61 time(s).

	31-03-2003 10:42									#363
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Attachment: starwars020.jpg
This has been downloaded 60 time(s).

	31-03-2003 10:44									#364
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I will not rest until these pathetic mouth-breather SW fans see the error of their ways! Everything since ESB has been drivel!

	31-03-2003 10:44									#365
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Attachment: starwars231.jpg
This has been downloaded 59 time(s).

	31-03-2003 10:45									#366
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Straybow I will not rest until these pathetic mouth-breather SW fans see the error of their ways! Everything since ESB has been drivel!

You will see your own error, at the sad end of a turbo Laser salvo!

	31-03-2003 10:47									#367
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

or in combat with the elite Storm Troopers... earth is in our sights!!!!



Prepare, for your new overlords are upon you

Attachment: starwars464.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).

	01-04-2003 00:05									#368
	Inflate your Upload Space

Straybow:

Again, your assumption is that the center of the SW galaxy must be identical to our own, and that is simply not the case. I don't think you can prove no such galactic centers are in existence, can you?

The point of these debates (and they are in fun, guys), is to say "that one is unrealistic!" THey're ALL unrealistic! ST has as much ludicrous, impossible feats as anything. Transporters? The Q? In these arguments, you have to accept what happens as canon and work backwards. If it happens on the screen, it means it is "real." If it says so in a book, and it isn't contradicted by what's on the screen, it is "real." Saying it's unfair that Lucas has more imagination than ST writers for fantastic technologies is simply silly. After all, as Arthur C. Clarke said, any sufficiently advanced technology will be indistinguishable from magic.

Back to the fun stuff:

GePap, you make good points, but again--you can't discount the tactical victories for the Empire given in the novels and other sources, as they don't contradict what is in the movies. An advanced, powerful civilization can indeed suffer defeats at the hands of inferior forces, as seen many times throughout history.

In the films, we see only three largescale tactical engagements--Yavin, Hoth and Endor. Hoth was a resounding tactical victory for the Empire (they not only suffered the miminal loss of 3 Walkers, but they destroyed a huge array fo Rebel equipment, as well as 17 transports, according to the ESB novelization). So let's deal with the defeats:

Yavin: Why did the Empire only deploy s few dozen fighters to combat the incoming rebel ships? The answer is pretty obvious--Tarkin viewed the DS as invulnerable, so saw no need to deploy them. Why even worry about a few little fighters that could barely make a tiny scratch on the surface of the DS? He didn't know about the achilles heel. So he figured he could let the few fighters occupy the rebels--along with the staion's point-defense cannons--and proceed to destroy Yavin's moon unhindered. Notice how, even when warned of a possible danger, Tarkin refuses to acknowledge it (interestingly enough, the officer who warned him survived, along with a handful of other Imps who had the foresight to evacuate).

Now Vader, he had known all along the DS wasn't invincible (we all remember the scene), so he decides to deploy with the fighters...and because he also probably views it more glorious to destroy the rebel fighters personally.

Now, why did the Imps lose here? Was the Rebel strategy really all that grand, and the Imps so incompetent? Not really, if one considers the destruction of the Death Star was due almost entirely to the Rebels happening to have one Luke Skywalker, who happened to be an as-yet tapped force user of incredible proportions. His shot was, as Han put it, "one in a million." The Empire had no way of knowing the Rebels would have a Skywalker flying for them. Considering the other fighter pilots were decimated (what, 6-7 of them made it back, including Luke?), the odds were certainly with the Empire, not against them. Luck. Even Tarkin's seeming overconfidence wasn't really that bad, as one could argue it was more prudent to conserve fighters in the face of a "useless" assault by 30 rebel fighters.

Now, were the Federation in the Rebels place, would they have succeeded? Certainly not. For one thing, they would not have Luke Skywalker, nor any force-sensitive being, as far as we can know. Second, they wouldn't even have the right kind of ships to do the trench run and make the shot. Run-abouts would be cut to ribbons by the DS turbolasers and the TIE Fighters, considering their lack of manueverability and, AFAIK, having no torpedoes or rockets. Of course, the Federation probably wouldn't have even been able to decifer the DS plans, as they would have been in a completely foreign language/alphabet/code. Feds lose this one.

Endor: Ah, how we want to say this was such a huge blunder for the Empire. In many ways, of course, it was. The biggest blunders were the Emperor's orders for the Imp fleet to hold back and not attack, which gave the Rebels the initiative to rush the Star Destroyers and engage them point-blank, which Star Destroyers are NOT accustomed to doing, especially against MonCal cruisers that have double the shielding. The second big blunder was, of course, the stupid officer in the bunker who opened the doors for Han. Had he not done so, the bunker would have been invulnerable, DS shield stays up, Rebels get creamed. Now, there are no shortage of incompetents in any large organization, especially one with tens of billions of personel. And why would the best be assigned to guard a dinky bunker on a dinky outpost like Endor? I don't think he represents the best of the bunch. Even so, his blunder isn't totally inexplicable. Considering that the rebel force was, at most, a dozen people, why would he think they should beat the Imps? Why should he expect for the supposedly noble rebels to use hundreds of primitive Ewoks as cannon fodder for the Imp forces to create a diversion like that? Still, yes, he goofed, big time.

But all of this pales in the fact that even that wouldn't have happened at all if it wasn't for blind, stinking luck. Had Han not stepped on that damned twig, the Empire would have won. That one damn twig. Had he not done so, the Rebels overpower the speederbikers easily. There's no chase, no jaunt into the woods, no encounter with the Ewoks, so no diversion. Han & Co. get caught in the trap, Empire wins. What's funny is how stupid Han & Leia were about the obvious trap. Gee, they'd think the Imps wouldn't notice the shuttle supposedly bringing supplies not landing at the platform, and the crew not showing up? Duh...

One could say another mistake, in retrospect, was Lord Vader's letting the shuttle go to Endor in the first place. But they couldn't very well have blown Luke up, since the Emperor wanted him alive. Plus, it was just a part of the trap. Again, they didn't think a dozen rebels could do a thing against the bunker.

Now again: How would the Feds have faired in the Rebel's place? If we set aside the logistical improbability of their acquiring an Imperial shuttle, getting the pass codes, or even being able to fly it, and the fact that their fleet would take years to warp to where the DS may be being built...would they have won?

Again, nearly impossible. First, without a Skywalker there, the stolen shuttle probably would have been blown out of the stars by the Executor, or at least boarded for inspection. Vader wouldn't have any reason to let them pass. Second, even if they got to the planet, they'd still be up ****'s creek. Even if we stipulate the twig incident happens (maybe it's Riker), then we have the speeder chase. Well, having no familiarity with even operating repulsorlifts, much less steering them at high speeds in the dense forest, the Feds would be screwed. Scouts get away, sound the alarm, Feds captured. No Ewoks. But what if they did encounter the Ewoks? How would they talk to them, sans protocol droid versed in 6 million forms of communications? What would stop the Ewoks from cooking them, sans golden droid that looks like a God?

And even if we avoid all that, once again, the Feds would have no ship small and fast enough to manuever through the DS to fire on the reactor. End result: Feds get annhilated as the DS superlaser picks off their cap ships (those that haven't been obliterated by the Star Destroyers, that is, since the Imp capital ships would rip them apart easily in close-quarters combat).

So much for tactics.

	01-04-2003 00:36									#369
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Boris:

Why did the imperials follow a bunch of furballs into unknown territory?

You know, perhaps in the books the Empire wins various victories, but given how crappy the rebels are as well, am I to be surprised?

Lets look at imperial equipment: why on earth do they ahve mahcines with legs? We know they have anti-grave equipment. In Hoth, the rebel basters could not break through the armor..if the Imperial armor is so tough, why give anyone the chance of taking something down cause it has LEGS? Why not have anti-grav vehicles, like Lukes speeder? And why do Imperial forcs atatck with no air cover? Not a single TI fighter to blow those A wings out of the air..and given the fact that the rebels had no weapons that seemed to be able to shoot up, would not a bunch of TIE bobers have done a good job at breakign the rebels?

Also, if the Empire can;t bomb Hoth, how can they land forces just a few miles away from the rebel base? If they can land forces, why not go in first with a few multi-gigaton missiles just to clear the landing area?

At least in episode 2 the Republican forcs have air support and transport vehicles..why do they disappear by the time the Empire comes around?


I do not argue that Trek forces could do better...my god, the heavist vehicles I have seen them use are seeders! But I can say that Erthfrce Marines would wipe the floor wih those storm troopers.

	01-04-2003 01:31									#370
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

While the Empire falls wayward for attack stratagies the Federation does the same on Policy. All the Empire would have to do is say, "Hey lets sit down and have a talk about this war." Next thing you know "whamo" they take out the gulible Federation. I still thing the Feds would win though.

quote: And even if we avoid all that, once again, the Feds would have no ship small and fast enough to manuever through the DS to fire on the reactor. End result: Feds get annhilated as the DS superlaser picks off their cap ships (those that haven't been obliterated by the Star Destroyers, that is, since the Imp capital ships would rip them apart easily in close-quarters combat).

Ya know, they don't need small ships. Why? because the federation can lock their torpedoes on to targets. All their weaponry is guided, leaving little room for error. Where as the Empire still uses Atari style cross-hairs.

	01-04-2003 01:33									#371
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The Vorlons have their own planert busting ships, and they have more than one. Bye bye DS, bye bye SD's.

	01-04-2003 01:44									#372
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Japher While the Empire falls wayward for attack stratagies the Federation does the same on Policy. All the Empire would have to do is say, "Hey lets sit down and have a talk about this war." Next thing you know "whamo" they take out the gulible Federation. I still thing the Feds would win though.

Is this another variation on "Good beats evil?"

quote: Ya know, they don't need small ships. Why? because the federation can lock their torpedoes on to targets. All their weaponry is guided, leaving little room for error. Where as the Empire still uses Atari style cross-hairs.

Never in ST canon has a torpedo been able to make a 90 degree turn. SW torpedoes are so well-guided, they can (Luke's torpedoes in ANH). The ST torpedoes wouldn't be able to navigate the inner DS maze, since they require a large arc to turn.

	01-04-2003 01:47									#373
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Touche

... the chiks in star trek are a lot hotter than the star wars chicks... espionage?

	01-04-2003 01:49									#374
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I dunno, all my friends thought Leia in her RoTJ slave dancer outfit was a total wet dream. But Harrison Ford is far better-looking than Shatner, Stewart and Sisko combined!

	01-04-2003 01:51									#375
	Tired of ads?

Is or was? Ford has gone downhill recently and I don't know how they plan on doing the next Indian Jones... I mean how are you going to edit out all the walkers and hearing aids?

	01-04-2003 01:56									#376
	Increase Your PM Length

Ford stayed pretty hot up until a few years ago, but he definitely was back for the old films. He was a little too gangly in ANH, but by ESB and RoTJ, he was solidly in stud territory.

	01-04-2003 02:56									#377
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

@ this thread.

My first inclination is to go with the Empire, because they can blow up planets, and are clearly larger and have been around much longer (including the Old Republic) and therefore should have a hefty tech edge.

On the other hand, considering that a rag-tag bunch of smugglers, renegades and other riff-raff took that mighty Empire down... I dunno. The Feds seem to get a lot out of their (by comparison) meager resources.

But in the end, I gotta go with the Empire. Did I mention they can blow up planets?

-Arrian

	01-04-2003 03:42									#378
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Bah.. why do all you SW and ST freaks ignore the fact that there is another choice, B5? More plenets were destroyed, and in in more than one way, than in SW.

I guess the "Star" people can;t seem to see that not all sci-fi needs to have "Star" in the Title. besides, B5 has Ming on its side.....

	01-04-2003 03:54									#379
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Arrian @ this thread. My first inclination is to go with the Empire, because they can blow up planets, and are clearly larger and have been around much longer (including the Old Republic) and therefore should have a hefty tech edge. On the other hand, considering that a rag-tag bunch of smugglers, renegades and other riff-raff took that mighty Empire down... I dunno. The Feds seem to get a lot out of their (by comparison) meager resources. But in the end, I gotta go with the Empire. Did I mention they can blow up planets? -Arrian

Arrian, Backwater Rebels don't have 3 km warships, the Alliance did.

	01-04-2003 03:59									#380
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by GePap Bah.. why do all you SW and ST freaks ignore the fact that there is another choice, B5? More plenets were destroyed, and in in more than one way, than in SW. I guess the "Star" people can;t seem to see that not all sci-fi needs to have "Star" in the Title. besides, B5 has Ming on its side.....

We don't know how the Vorlon Planet Killers are used, do we? For all we know they use a BDZ principle like the Empire.

In which case; SW Planetary shields would be able to stop them.

That and First Ones hulls are paperthin.

	01-04-2003 04:02									#381
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

paper thin? and what gives you that idea? Just cause they might be damaged by very large nuclear wepaons? Oh, sorry, we didn;t make crap utterly up like SW did.

As for that Planetary shield..then we use the shadow planet killer and not the Vorlon one.

	01-04-2003 04:09									#382
	Tired of ads?

The Shadow Death cloud would be even less effective.
Some nice fireworks on the Planetary Shield, assuming PLanetary defenses don't F*ck it up.

As for Paperthin hulls, what I have in mind (besides the nukes) is when the Narn Battlecrusier destroyed a Shadow Battlecrab. An ISD would dispatch a Battlecrab with even greater ease.

	01-04-2003 04:15									#383
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The Narn ship added its firepower to an already weakened ship that wa salso under atatck by a white Star and a bunch of teekpaths.

if this Planetary shiled is so damned good, what the hell ever was the point of a DS? all of that for no reason? and if it is so good, how does ANYTHING ever get trought? are you telling me planets in the SW universe are invincible and unassailable cause of their impenetrable shields? I don'tbuy it. They had shield on hoth, and the Empire was able to LAND TROOPS just a few miles away from the GENERATOR. If the Empire cna land a walker, why can the Shadows land a multi gigaton, crust penetrating missile? and some nano to boot?

	01-04-2003 04:19									#384
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by GePap The Narn ship added its firepower to an already weakened ship that wa salso under atatck by a white Star and a bunch of teekpaths. if this Planetary shiled is so damned good, what the hell ever was the point of a DS? all of that for no reason? and if it is so good, how does ANYTHING ever get trought? are you telling me planets in the SW universe are invincible and unassailable cause of their impenetrable shields? I don'tbuy it. They had shield on hoth, and the Empire was able to LAND TROOPS just a few miles away from the GENERATOR. If the Empire cna land a walker, why can the Shadows land a multi gigaton, crust penetrating missile? and some nano to boot?

A signifigant amount of energy will break upon anything. That's what happen to Alderaan, who's planetary shield stopped the DS1's superlaser for a split second.

Hoth didn't have a planetary shield, it had a smaller "Umbrella" theater shield This is why you didn't see much in the way of Imperial Airsupport, flying into the shield would cause a big booboo for unproperly grounded objects.

	01-04-2003 04:24									#385
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

So, if the DS could break through the shield, then the Vorlons would be able to as well, would they not? And as i said, the Vorlons have multiple planet killers, while the Empire could only afford one planetkiller at a time.

May I add that the Shdaow planet killer is great at attakcing enemy fleets, even better than a one shot ant a time weapons. it can envelop many ships, the nano start to attack vessels and shut down systems, while the missiles take out larger ships.

	01-04-2003 04:27									#386
	Full PM-box? Change here!

GePap, for all we know, the Vorlon PLanet Killer just scorches the planets surface like the Shadow Death cloud, in which case, whoop de-frickin' do. A ISD can do the same.

I agree that a Deathcloud would be a b*tch and a half to kill, but it still wouldn't be able to break a Planetary shield.

	01-04-2003 04:31									#387
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

We know that thew Vorlon planet killer blows them up good, just like the DS. And the Shadows don';t just scorch the surface: they send missiles deep in to churn the planet inside out while nano uses up all bilogical and useful mineral resources, leaving the planet utterly useless.

	01-04-2003 04:44									#388
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Bah.. why do all you SW and ST freaks ignore the fact that there is another choice, B5? More plenets were destroyed, and in in more than one way, than in SW.

What about Dune?

	01-04-2003 05:23									#389
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by GePap We know that thew Vorlon planet killer blows them up good, just like the DS. And the Shadows don';t just scorch the surface: they send missiles deep in to churn the planet inside out while nano uses up all bilogical and useful mineral resources, leaving the planet utterly useless.

We do, huh? What episode of B5 was that?(when we saw the vorlon planetkiller in action and/or effects)

	01-04-2003 08:06									#390
	Inflate your Upload Space

I've not seen an entire episode of B5 to this very day, so don't really give a damn about it, sorry.

Thanks to Lonestar for answering the Hoth shield question. The reason for using AT-ATs is maybe because repulsorlift vehicles have a difficult time operating over deep snow or ice. After all, we don't see the Rebels using them, either...they use air speeders.

AT-ATs are good for a few reasons--first, there's the obvious fear factor. Inspiring terror in the enemy with 100-foot walking behemoths does provide a morale advantage, to some degree. Second, they are incredibly well-armored and shielded. Repulsorlift vehicles may nto be able to have such armor. AT-ATs shrugged off direct hits from the Rebel turbolasers. Third, it is extremely difficult to take down an AT-AT. Recall how only one was taken down by the tripwire, and that's because the speeder was flown by Wedge Antilles, probably the best starfighter pilot in the galaxy at that point. Two lost AT-ATs is an extremely small price to pay, considering they destroyed a rebel base and 17 transports.