24-03-2003 09:21									#1
	Super Powers Got spare money?

I always play on a standard map with continents, and I have noticed a common trend. There always seems to be an unstoppable AI superpower, one that is constantly at war and conquers all other AIs on its continent. By 1850, especially when there are only two continents, there are only two civs left: Myself and the Super AI. I think that the AI allows one civ to dominate the other AI civs to be able to compete with the player on more even footing, and things usually come down to a superpower conlict. The dominant civ changes. This game it was the Persians, before that the Koreans, and before that the Chinese.

Does this happen to anyone else?

	24-03-2003 09:29									#2
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I do not think it is a plan or a strategy from the Devs, it is just the natural flow of things in the game.
Some will try to help the lessor civs a bit to slow down the juggernaut.
Me I let the chips fall where they may for the most part and act as if all civs must die.

	24-03-2003 10:21									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff I always play on a standard map with continents, and I have noticed a common trend. There always seems to be an unstoppable AI superpower, one that is constantly at war and conquers all other AIs on its continent.

Could you describe the games where you've had this experience more precisely (civs, starting locations, land form, etc.)? I'm interested in knowing how these KIAs (Killer AIs) arise, since the games where they do are the most fun.


Dominae

	24-03-2003 10:50									#4
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I always play on a standard map, 8 civs, using Germany with culturaly linked starts, on continents, on monarch level. The continents are too far apart to be reached by Galley, and by the time the civs can reach each other the continents are full of their original civs. While I am fighting to domiante my continent, the Killer AI is fighting to dominate its continent.
In my last game Persia had conquered its entire continent by 1450, and had 50 cities. It became involved in wars with civs on my continent, but they were insignificant. By 1875 I had conquered my continent, had 50 cities of my own, and had a century long superpower standoff that ended in a war and the nuclear annihilation of Persia (as is documented in the nuclear war thread).

This type of thing happens to me every game, and every game I use the same settings. The game before that I had dominated my continent by about 100 A.D. and was isolated until the 1500s. Korea was on a continent that was about twice the size of mine, and conquered it by the late 1800s. I barely won the space race on that game.

	24-03-2003 12:04									#5
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Interesting Wycoff, honesty I think it's just a major coincidence that this happens in ALL of your games. Of course, superpowerdom is easier to achieve with less civs.

My current game is Huge and it's the 1700s and no one has conquered its continent although I'm about to do so in a while... (operation Iroqouis Freedom)

	24-03-2003 14:40									#6
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I usually play continents maps and don't always get a superpower AI. I think it is influenced by the aggression levels of the various civs and whether they are in the same cultural group. I have noticed that (at least in my games) if the Aztecs, Americans and Iroquois are on a continent with no others they usually stay pretty stable.

	24-03-2003 18:13									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff I always play on a standard map with continents, and I have noticed a common trend. There always seems to be an unstoppable AI superpower, one that is constantly at war and conquers all other AIs on its continent. By 1850, especially when there are only two continents, there are only two civs left: Myself and the Super AI. I think that the AI allows one civ to dominate the other AI civs to be able to compete with the player on more even footing, and things usually come down to a superpower conlict. The dominant civ changes. This game it was the Persians, before that the Koreans, and before that the Chinese. Does this happen to anyone else?

I would wager this is caused by how you play the game, more than luck. It is definitely not in every game, for me & others at least. I rarely have 1 AI Superpower as I do everything I can to avoid that.

I would further wager if you made it a goal to actively weaken the strongest AI (not necessarily through direct attacks) during your games you could help hinder this.

A warmonger AI might throw my plans off track temporarily, but I always seek to weaken the strongest AI, regardless if I am the underdog or have a huge lead.

Depending on the AI Superpower's Power Army Size, Techs, Allies/Trading Partners & Location you have to decide...
1.Declare War (you alone vs the Superpower) w/ possibly embargoes - most potential profit
2.Coalition War (you&allies vs. the AI Superpower) w/ possibly embargoes - quickest & safer
3.Mass Embargo (you&allies embargo the Superpower) - safer & easier than 1&2, but could lead to war
4.Embargo (you embargo the Superpower alone) - I don't recommend this
5.Help the enemies of the AI Superpower (trade/gifts) - safer than 1-4
6.Don't embargo & don't trade with the AI Superpower (unless they demand & you feel in danger) - safer than 1-4
7.Only trade 1 resource with AI Superpower to keep good relations - safest
8.Be their b!tch & trade/give the Superpower everything they want (this is the worst obviously) - safest in the shortrun, but in the long run deadly since you'll have nothing to offer when they DEMAND more.

Since the AI is NOT programmed with a 'balance of power' in the game, when the human player starts to get a lead the game gets more boring, IMO. The human can just constantly keep widening the gap between his/her strength & the weaker AIs... nothing is there to challenge the human later. And no one better say Corruption... Corruption hurts the AI more than the Human & is tedious after the x-hundredth time too.

	24-03-2003 19:31									#8
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Nope, I dont let it happen. When I see a civ that is getting to strong I declare war on them and have every civ close to the enemy ally with me to keep it at a normal size empire.

It always works.

Spec.

	24-03-2003 19:42									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator It always works.

Not if you are on a continents map and one AI civ overruns the others before you get contact with that continent. It can be too late to do anything about it. Fortunately it doesn't happen too often.

	24-03-2003 21:44									#10
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I think it rather depends upon the civ in battle and the RNG. If you look at some of the AU games on the strategy forum (specifically I know for 206), sometimes the weaker AIs on the other continent are wiped out, sometimes not.

In AU206, a few players found Russia when the found the other continent, others only found a strong America and France. If I hadn't intervened and set-up a DMZ between Russia and America in my game, Russia might have been wiped out before I won.

Another thing that probably contributes as others mentioned here is the attitude between the AIs on the other continent. America and Russia naturally fight each other because they don't belong to the same global culture and they disapprove of each other's favored government which leads to mutual angry attitudes which I believe does have some influence on if and who the AI decides to attack. Of course there is Russia's aggression factor which makes them more hostile and more likely to attack, but in AU206, the ended up with weaker land and their hostility backfires.

Wycoff, if you didn't always take the Germans, I'm sure they would often be at war on the other continent and sometimes, like in one of my games, become the superpower (till you blow up their continent with nukes. )

Last edited by badams52 on 25-03-2003 at 00:07

	24-03-2003 22:52									#11
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Not if you are on a continents map and one AI civ overruns the others before you get contact with that continent. It can be too late to do anything about it. Fortunately it doesn't happen too often.

Of course. I thought that would be obvious...

	24-03-2003 23:18									#12
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So did I.

	24-03-2003 23:31									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator Nope, I dont let it happen. When I see a civ that is getting to strong I declare war on them and have every civ close to the enemy ally with me to keep it at a normal size empire. It always works. Spec.

The thing is, the super AI is already at war with all other civs around it, and often with half of my continent as well. There is no one left to ally with that isn't already at war with the super AI civ. In my last game My continent had Mself(Germany), Russia, France, England, and Spain. The other continent had Persia, the Ottomans, and Babylon.

I had long ago conquered Russia and weakened England by the time I had made contact with the Persians. By the time that I did contact the Persians, around 1300 A.D., they had already conquered half of Turkey and Half of Babylon. Persia quickly made demands from Spain, France, and Myself, and was at war with all of us. The only civ that wasn't at war was England, which had two cities. I used this oppurtunity to take out France, which was now spread out,, and England, which was isolated. However, Persia steamrolled the remaining half of their continent while fighting off an invasion from Spain (the 3rd power in the world at the time behind Persia and myself) I didn't have a navy or forces capable to impede Persian expansion, and I wanted to consoldate my power on my continent while I still was pretty early in the game. By 1600 I had conquered France and England, and started to build up the infrastructure in my new territory. By this time the only civs left were Persia, Spain, and myself. Granted, Persia did dominate an entire continent, but Spain was immediately to my north and was the bigger threat. Spain and Persia were at war for hundreds of years, until the early 1800s when Spain atacked me. I wiped out the Spanish by the 1870s and got ready for the inevitable super power standoff.

In every game that I have a super AI, that AI is already at war with all of its neigbors, and seems to be able to defeat them with no problem. I can't really ally with anyone else, since they are already at war with the rest of the world and are doing just fine. That is why most of my games end with the Space Race.

	24-03-2003 23:33									#14
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Not if you are on a continents map and one AI civ overruns the others before you get contact with that continent... Fortunately it doesn't happen too often.

It seems to happen to me every game. I like it though, because then the AI can pose a more serious challenge, especially if it has a much larger land mass.

	24-03-2003 23:34									#15
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Look at my posts on the nuclear war thread to see pictures of the Persian continent and the German continent.

	24-03-2003 23:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff It seems to happen to me every game. I like it though, because then the AI can pose a more serious challenge, especially if it has a much larger land mass.

Me, I always sacrafice galleys until I reach the other side of the map. This one time, I succeeded with my first Galley.

Spec.

	25-03-2003 09:51									#17
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This Super Power growth happens to me as well.

	25-03-2003 09:51									#18
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I am not sure of my premises but it seems the following are very rough determinants of which AI civ may become a superpower:
- good starting location
- good city sites nearby
- neighbouring civ not too close to those good sites
- resources (particularly iron) nearby
- on a continent (and I am not on same continent)

If the above conditions are all satisfied there is quite a good chance a superpower may develope.

There are some chance factors that seem very important:
- placement of Forbidden Palace
- get a settler from goody hut (at decent city site) extremely early

It also seems that civs develope according to how good their land is so they will develope at different rates until it reachs a point where one civ reachs a critical mass at which point it is able to overwhelm a neighbour quickly and without too much losses. I think this is why it sometimes seems that one civ has just "walked over" another civ.

I suspect that Industrious civs with a mix of grassland and plenty of hills are candidates for superpower status (quickly building massive industrial capacity which may be converted into a killer stack of troops)

I am thinking that it may be possible to design a map and place civs with a high probabitity of a particular AI civ will become a superpower.

End of rant

	25-03-2003 10:02									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Wycoff Does this happen to anyone else?

I MAKE SURE it doesn't happen. Had a game recently where France had only one source of Iron. I had an ROP w/them and planted a horseman right on the iron. No roads to the source. This prevented them from ever being able to utilise the iron (they couldn't build a road while I was there--couldn't ask me to leave due to ROP). Bastard that I was, I later sold them iron for 20 turns.

I'll screw all the AI civs whenever I can. God knows they screw me on trade agreements.

If that doesn't work, I invade. --R

Edited for minor grammatical errors only. Content remains refreshingly the same.

	25-03-2003 14:24									#20
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Hmm I realized it in most of my games too. A civ is almost at war with one other sometimes even with more and conquer and conquer and conquer. Not that it matters most in the end the super AI is destined to fall anyway and I have this feeling too that there might be some programming code for a dislike against the human controlled civ.

	25-03-2003 18:40									#21
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I've also noticed that war brings more war. I play the extremly peaceful builder and I rarely get into war with the AI (on monarch/emperor depending on mood). The only times they start war with me is when I don't agree to their demands and have a really small army or when I take way to much gpt so that they can't pay. But after the first war there's always going to be heaps and heaps more. They seem to aquire an endless blood lust or something. They can be gracious, get fed up with their gpt deal, go to war. After a few fruitless turns of bickering we sign peace but then as soon as they have rebuilt their army, even if they're polite they declare again. This inspite of me not conquering any of their cities or something similar.

The funny part is that if I am generous and behave, usually by making lots of trade agreements etc we can go on through the entire modern age without ANY wars, not even between AIs. I wonder if this is because they all have about the same stading point, eg they all have the same techs so they don't have to fight over that. The same with luxuries, there's plenty to go around as long as people/AI trade a lot.

	25-03-2003 21:13									#22
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quote: I've also noticed that war brings more war.

This is VERY true. ALL AI Civ try to mimic what you do, their Aggression Levels & other factors play a VERY minor role. I would wager starting location as the #1 influence on how AI Civs turn out & how you play as #2.

	27-03-2003 02:07									#23
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This happens to me sometimes, but not very often. I kindda like that, cus it's more fun to find someone a little more powerful than you are. In my current game, I'm the 3rd weakest civ, and have no oil. It's very intersting as how I can come up on top. Rough road ahead.

	27-03-2003 21:12									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Pyrodrew ALL AI Civ try to mimic what you do, their Aggression Levels & other factors play a VERY minor role. I would wager starting location as the #1 influence on how AI Civs turn out & how you play as #2.

Wow than I really must be a jackass
Ok seriously I must admit I'm a warmonger and all civs weaker than mine tend to rather fall quickly under my sword. I think it's a waste of time and resources to deal with civs inferior to mine It's better for them to be incorporated into my empire this way the resources serve a good purpose: MINE

	27-03-2003 21:26									#25
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In terms of an empire in Civ, incorporating the civs on your continent are usually to your advantage. Larger empire = more resources/luxuries to sell = faster research = ultimate power.

	28-03-2003 08:00									#26
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What I truly hate is when the Ai tries to sneak attack you: a big large stack of cavalry advances through your territory, gets on the closest border city and suddenly the leader asks for some pathetic impossible thing: "give me your only oil resource", or something like that. Then he attacks... so bloody predictable and so bloody despisable... Asking him to get out only anticipates the war. At least that way he's more sincere.

	28-03-2003 08:43									#27
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But when you ask him to declare or leave, at least it's on your turn and you can use your offensive units to wipe out his cavalry before they get a chance to attack.

	28-03-2003 13:41									#28
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That's why you should always have a stack of Cav or whatever other mobile unit you have near your hostile borders.

Once you have railroads, however, it is practially impossible for the AI to beat you in a defensive war.

	28-03-2003 15:27									#29
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quote: Originally posted by pedrojedi What I truly hate is when the Ai tries to sneak attack you: a big large stack of cavalry advances through your territory, gets on the closest border city and suddenly the leader asks for some pathetic impossible thing: "give me your only oil resource", or something like that. Then he attacks... so bloody predictable and so bloody despisable... Asking him to get out only anticipates the war. At least that way he's more sincere.

Jup but I would not call it a sneak attack as you said he moved a large stack to your border and I always break out in laugher when I see it. I think to myself:
You dummy I see you
And when his stack arrives mine is already in place for month and whoops we have a war and whoops another civ is gone. I like it when this happens because this way I don't need to declare war and can hide behind a peaceful dude that just want to defend his country.

	28-03-2003 17:29									#30
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quote: What I truly hate is when the Ai tries to sneak attack you: a big large stack of cavalry advances through your territory, gets on the closest border city and suddenly the leader asks for some pathetic impossible thing: "give me your only oil resource", or something like that. Then he attacks... so bloody predictable and so bloody despisable... Asking him to get out only anticipates the war. At least that way he's more sincere.

quote: But when you ask him to declare or leave, at least it's on your turn and you can use your offensive units to wipe out his cavalry before they get a chance to attack.

quote: it is practially impossible for the AI to beat you in a defensive war.

That's another disappointing aspect about the AI in Civ3, that's just a too common stupid AI move when a REAL AI surprise attack (no sitting in your territory vulnerable) would be so much more powerful & worthy against a human player. Soren didn't fix this in PtW?