24-03-2003 10:08									#1
	Turn 80, 1025 BC Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To be edited by the leaders of the Scholia.

Status:
- Researching Republic at 100%, ready in 5 turns (trying to get it down to 4).
- 317 gold cash, +0 gpt (thanks to our 5gpt from ND).

Urgent questions:
- What do we want to name our desert city? Sandstorm, maybe?

Military:
- Settler moves 9-8.

Economy:
- Worker north of Arashi builds road. Note that this is a departure from standing orders. The goal is to have roads ready to take our next Cyclone settler to the iron city site quickly.
- Move the EotS laborer curently on the irrigated fur to the mined grassland adjacent to EotS. (We should get the extra shield we need for our worker from growth.) Until we get Republic, we'll be alternating two turns with EotS getting the extra irrigated fur and two with Hurricane getting it. (That accomplishes the same thing as strict alternation but with fewer moves.)
- Worker in Hurricane is added to the city. (Hurricane should be working all four irrigated furs.)
- Worker north of Tempest finishes mine, moves 2-6-6.
- Worker just south of EotS finishes road. Moves 8-8. (My goal is to get six workers on the east side of the river, four to add to Hurricane after finishing improving its tiles and two to work tiles for our future eastern cities. This turn puts us five turns away from the earliest we'll be ready to add additional workers to Hurricane.)

Diplomacy:


Thread library:
- Standing orders for workers

	24-03-2003 11:48									#2
	Tired of ads?

Adding the Worker to Hurricane adds 1 corruption 1 commerce, but it gets us close enough with growth in Arashi, Tornado and Bolderberg along with founding the desert city. We only have 3 commerce to spare using the worst case beakers remaining (255). It's cutting it close, but works.

So 925BC is the date of the revolution...


Here is the scenario I played from. (someone double check it please )

	24-03-2003 13:35									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

To clarify how this works... We need to delay our Settler build in Cyclone 1 turn (timed so that it completes the same turn the Republic does) to get the Republic a turn sooner. Otherwise the lost commerce from being lower pop there messes things up.

An extra turn of Republic empire-wide more than offsets the lost turn of 2 food, 1 shield, 1 commerce that we lose this way.

	24-03-2003 23:43									#4
	Support Apolyton

Since the current turn thread should get the most attention: I just got a disturbing PM from GF, see the GoW contact thread. Perhaps it's time for some serious military buildup and/or some serious diplomacy.

	25-03-2003 11:15									#5
	Got spare money?

Beware the source, and check out my report on my chat with Jon a few minutes ago. Still, more forces wouldn't hurt.

	25-03-2003 16:35									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Regarding the possibility that Lego might have switched from a ~300 shields palace: how are palace costs calculated anyway? I understand that it depends on the OCN and your amount of cities, but what is the exact formula?

	26-03-2003 18:14									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I got Darekill's response for the tech proposal: a total no...
They say that they're researching Currency (acceptable), and have sources for Repulic (Lego? or there's someone else racing for the tech?) and Construction- someone probably had it reseached, or bought it from Lego and passed it around, so i supposed we could tell this to Lego- C&C has no research value for us whatsoever right now, while Republic has some greater potential. The question is, who's researching Republic? i don't think Lego has tricked us on this, but it's worth considering- we should tell this to Lego.

As for ND, should i be more assertive, and tell them we'll surely have Republic before anyone else does?

	26-03-2003 18:31									#8
	Got spare money?

I'll bet it's RP and/or GoW offering it to ND after getting it from Lego. Perhaps we should request that Lego puts a NDA (I was under the impression that it was so, but reading it again we goofed) with any trade of Republic to RP and GoW, as one of the two is trading it to ND.

Sounds like everyone is waiting for us to get Republic for them, and we get nothing to very little for it except from Vox. I wonder how many trade agreements would fall through if we just held onto it with Vox... Everyone would hate us of course.

I think we should suggest to ND that they are getting the Republic third hand. We should tell them when we will have it researched, and the extra turns of being in a Republic might win them over. We should also say that we are considering cutting off the Republic to their source if need be, as the agreement with our trading it was we would be the supplier to them, along with Construction.

I very much doubt any of the others would want to spend 10-15 turns waiting for the Republic to be finished by someone else. We should be able to get a lot more out of this tech, it's quite possibly the most important tech in the whole game.

	26-03-2003 19:02									#9
	Suffering from ads?

A funny thought... We could offer to give the Republic to ND for free on turn 86...

	26-03-2003 22:16									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Opening the turn.

Score information:

153 (+3) Gathering Storm
162 (+4) Demogyptica
132 (+2) Glory of War
167 (+3) Role Play
116 (+2) Vox Controli
169 (+2) Legoland

	26-03-2003 22:22									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Turn played. No complications.

Our military is weak, compared to everyone. This includes Vox.

Turn and screenshots will be sent within the next minutes.

	26-03-2003 22:33									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

republic for ND: I already predicted the other two techs in last msg to redstar1, and while I was writing that one, I noticed too that we did goof with not asking NDAs on republic. However... it is not too late. The proposal is nowhere near final yet (see the last lego communication), and I hinted at us asking for NDAs on republic to whoever we trade it to. It should not be a problem to ammend the deal so that they will be guaranteed resale value, when we get the same.

But no worries, next time I contact them, I will certainly mention the ND situation... now we know, I could only suggest in last PM.

Aeson, if we would hold on to republic, I'm not sure we will mess up everyone's deal. I got the strong impression that someone was researching, or at least planning to research republic on Bob. Maybe lego's diplo effort of the past week has made them stop researching republic, maybe it still continues at a much slower pace. Of course, we can't do it (because of the diplo hit with Lego, which currently may become one of our aces if we can secure them into an alliance of sorts), but even if we could, I don't think it will delay them much.

What would giving republic for free accomplish? It indeed is a funny thought, but many of these funny things turn out to be worthy paths to eplxore...

DeepO

	26-03-2003 22:41									#13
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If it turns out we can't get anything from ND for Republic... why not? Might screw up someone else's plans for trading and open up an opportunity.

Lego said they had deals for the Republic with RP and GoW, and ND is researching Currency... it doesn't leave anyone to research Republic except us.

	26-03-2003 23:18									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

While we're debating Republic,
Lego are building the Great Pyramid, and we want to delay them. Is there any chance we can delay them from getting Republic by two turns or so? Can we tell them that we got hit by disease or something, and get away with it?
Surely they will understand that it was just bad luck and we couldn't help it. They may be slightly irritated by this, but they certainly won't blame us. Every turn we delay giving Republic to Lego could put us 5-6 shields ahead of them, and if we tell Lego that we can only provide it in turn 86 (which is when we originally promised to provide it), we could get the edge we need in order to secure the Pyramids to ourselves.
Plus, delaying Republic to Lego by a few turns could really help us find out if Lego, RP or GoW are really selling our tech to ND.

Btw, what's the formula for calculating how much a palace move would cost?

	26-03-2003 23:30									#15
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Wouldn't pretending that we've been hit by disease come under our agreement never to tell outright lies?

	26-03-2003 23:38									#16
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Aeson, might be a good thing to try... but maybe we can somehow trade it to them for a smaller price, if we give them a date sooner as the other sources.

One problem with offering it for free, though. Have you considered it may be part of Vox's payment to stay on Bob? if so, the only one we would harm by giving it is Vox... kind of nasty

As to Lego getting C&C from RP and Gow:
1. they didn't tell they would get the techs from these guys, only that they had deals to trade rep away to them. They could have another deal with ND

2. Even if currency would be traded by e.g. RP to Lego, that doesn't mean RP researches itself. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if by the time Lego gives us Currency, it would be fourth-hand, instead of second-hand.

Shiber: Lego building the pyramids concerns me too, however, so far I haven't found any sensible way to ask for what they are doing. The problem is that the moment I ask them if it was a converted palace prebuild we spotted, they are shown that we know of a (clever) way of hiding a prebuild, which they might not be aware of. In last chat, it sounded like they do not analyse the F11 screen as thoroughly as we do, it wouldn't surprise me if they would not check the F7 screen often either.

BTW, maybe it's a good idea to make it standard from now on to check both the F7 screen, and the science screen (F6) to see when another team gets a tech. I know it's a bit more trouble, but it would be better for our game

DeepO

	26-03-2003 23:39									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Yeah, I am not going to tell Lego we were hit by disease if we aren't, I wouldn't want them to do the same to me either

DeepO

	26-03-2003 23:43									#18
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I have no idea on how much the Palace costs. I have yet to build the Palace in a game except accidently [forgotten prebuilds...], so never really cared to find out. We have 8 cities and it costs 300 shields.

-------------------

No lies. If they are going to beat us it isn't likely to be a matter of a couple of turns... they will beat us by several turns or not at all. With the way things are shaping up, we might want end up delaying the Republic trade for a while anyways. The deal was never accepted on their part, and Lego is being rather obtuse on the issue.

	26-03-2003 23:54									#19
	Remove this text

If Vox is reselling our techs before we give them to them, screw em. I'd think Vox's major card is their Middle Ages tech though.

We should ask ND who they are getting the Republic from, and state that we had an NDA (no need for details) with those we had finalized (EDIT: are discussing) deals with. I doubt Lego is trading it, but ND won't necessarily know it's Lego we are talking about and may spill something.

If the deal with Lego doesn't shape up, we could have Vox aquire Construction and Currency for their middle ages tech for us, with whatever compensation we'd need to add on our part. If no one else is researching the Republic, we could then make a killing trading it around.

Last edited by Aeson on 26-03-2003 at 23:59

	26-03-2003 23:55									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

So basically we give Republic to ND through Vox (for free?), to pay for Voxes 'survival '???
Which leaves both Vox and others more units to be used against us.