24-03-2003 14:50									#1
	New (?) SMAX Scenario PBEM Observation Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

In a head-to-head game set up by Googlie containing a mix of SMAC/SMAX factions; my opponant Yabcok noticed something odd. He was playing The Cult (SMAX) & I was playing the Spartans (SMAC). The map was large & the level was transcend.
Both our tech costs should therefore, have been 15. His was however, 38 in 2001 dropping to 35 in 2003, while mine remained at 15. In a playtest by our CMN Googlie, the following figures were observed:
Cult Sparta
2101 - 38 16
2102 - 38 16
2103 - 35 15
2104 - 35 15
2105 - 35 15
2106 - 35 35 (tech discovered that year)
2107 - 35 35
2108 - 57 (new tech) 35
2109 - 57 35
2110 - 57 35
2111 - 57 57 (new tech)

Googlie accounted for the 38 to 35 drop as follows: "(for turns 1 and 2, the Cult is listed as having the tech lead- by turn 3 it has gone to Yang, hence the tech cost drop from 38 to 35 for the Cult)."

My esteemed opponant yabcok then postulated the following:
"Ok, I think I've found why is:
In hotseat/email games, the techs which faction is given by free on a start are not counted into total number of techs, so tech costs looks like:

turn, cost (having techs)

1 C: 15 (2), S: 15 (1)
2 C: 15 (2), S: 15 (1)
3 C: 15 (2), S: 33 (2)
4 C: 33 (3)

Second tech cost is doubled, but it refers to second DISCOVERED tech not second faction really has. On scenario, when you have to manually choose techs which faction is given, starting techs are counted into total number of techs correctly and it's why tech costs path is different, regardless of the same game conditions.

Yabcok"

This is something new to me & I invite comments. I'm surprised nobody has noticed before. NB The problem only arises in a game that starts life as a scenario.

Hobbes

	24-03-2003 22:52									#2
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I don't know if this is relevant or not, but in the first PBEM game that I took part in, we had to restart because different players' factions were working at different difficulty levels, thanks to a Firaxian bug.

I'm very uninformed when it comes to these things so if it has no bearing whatsoever, don't blame me.

However in the event that I am right, praise, adulation, and proposals of marriage can be sent to amazonian_mage@yahoo.com.

	25-03-2003 02:21									#3
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AC:

when setting up a PBEM via a scenario'd start, there is a scenario rule 'flag' that must be checked "force current difficulty level"

Otherwise only the first faction will be at that level - say transcend - all the others will be at librarian, the default level (where everything is at 0 penalty and 0 bonus)

In IP games you can set an overall diff level that governs the mega game formulae, but then set each faction diff level individually, which impacts their faction-specific research rate, drones, etc. Useful for balancing a game between vets and newbies for internet multiplay

G.

	25-03-2003 02:45									#4
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I have observed this phenomenon before...A couple of years ago, when I was playing a Morgan - Sparta duel with Korn. In that game, his tech costs was lower than mine at every ordinal point by at least 10%. As you might imagine, that caused me no small amount of consternation!

The conclusion that Sikander and I reasched in that case is that there is a significant factor in determining tech cost that is related to how far ahead or behind one is in overall tech level.

I think this is one of the weaknesses in the game, a vestige of grafting on the pbem hotseat format to a single player game. I have read some of Brian Reynolds' comments on design theory in other places...the operation of this type of 'evening the field' mechanism is manifest throughout BR's designs. If you recall, a similar method was used in CivII.

Other applications of it in SMAC are the 'random' event occurrences and the way the diplomatic posture of the AI changes according to the human's relative strength.

	25-03-2003 17:26									#5
	Re: New (?) SMAX Scenario PBEM Observation Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by H0bbes yabcok then postulated the following: "On scenario, when you have to manually choose techs which faction is given, starting techs are counted into total number of techs correctly and it's why tech costs path is different, regardless of the same game conditions. Yabcok" This is something new to me & I invite comments. I'm surprised nobody has noticed before. NB The problem only arises in a game that starts life as a scenario.

Nice work and observations.

Regarding Scenario setup, I have to obejct to one thing yabcok said.

You don't actually have to manually choose the factional default techs.
I haven't been there since a long time, but I'm pretty much sure (corrections welcome) that even inside the Scenario Editor you can LOAD a faction from its txt file, including all of its factional techs, WITHOUT needing to actually add them manually.

I can't say whether this makes any difference, or if even that way the Scenario takes differently account of the initial techs.

In summary I just want to suggest that EVEN with a Scenario-based game, there MIGHT be a way that the game skips the initial factional techs for tech cost, as in a normally setup game.
It might all depend from the corret technique to load the desired faction into the Scenario (or by the way you start the Scenario altogether, i.e. you "might prefer" (and I thus advise) to Ctrl-K a normally setup game instead of launching it directly).

I never noticed the difference (to justified Hobbes' surprise) because I indeed *always* start the Scenario via Ctrl-K.

Up to the still more committed than I'm now, to actually test and verify this.

	25-03-2003 21:14									#6
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M1:

I think (from my CMN experiences) that loading the faction in the Scenario Editor simply loads the SE bonuses and penalties - techs still have to be manually edited (same as using the "reset all factions' button)

G.