24-03-2003 18:48									#1
	The WAR of RETRIBUTION II Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Vox settled the city anyway, after ND, Roleplay, and GoW told them not to. Seriously, would any rational person have done this unless they had someone backing them up?

Another team has to have agreed to support them in this war, either GS, ND, or Roleplay. I find it very hard to believe that are stupid enough to think they can take on all three of the Native Bob civs by themselves.

I doubt it is ND as they do need us in the war against Roleplay. Roleplay might be a posibility, definitely think GS is a strong candidate also.

From Darekill:

quote: Vox foundet Wittlich West on Borconia (Bob). Please sign the Treaty of 1075BC After that we will declare War on vox in this very turn. You should do the same and since the treaty is signed then Spain should do the same too so that the alliance isn't a toothless tiger. Two of our Swordsman will be on the way imediately though it'll last a few turns to reach the front.

I would suggest sending our Veteran Horseman against the Regular Immortal in the city. It moved so was unable to fotify. It's risky, but we had assumed that Horseman would be killed by the Immortals already and without a settlement to protect Vox may not be so enthused about committing more troops to our mainland.

	24-03-2003 19:15									#2
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Idiots.

I highly recommend the B.O.B. be looked at more fully now.

Is it also possible they got reinforced via the galley?

	24-03-2003 19:19									#3
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Vox must be removed from the game....

Pop the horses if we have to...

	24-03-2003 22:47									#4
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From Vox:

quote: I can't right now- I am at work. And I have a 1:30 - 4:00 meeting coming up. Bureaucrats... But relax already. Our long-term intent is not to stay on Bob - but we can't make that publicly known. We also built the city in a plains square wher it will be more productive and LESS defensible just to prove that to you. We will also evacuate all our units from Bob in very short order. If we have a choice between fighting it out with you and NeuD over Bob, or moving south, BELIEVE me, Bob is not our first choice. But if you destroy the city - all you would be doing is costing us - both of us - a city. So lets talk about more productive endeavours. OK? ... Beta. quote: GhengisFarb wrote on 24-03-2003 12:45: We need tp talk NOW otherwise your city may not be there next turn. quote: BetaHound wrote on 24-03-2003 11:42: Hi Ghengis. How's things? The above was simply the war cry of an immortal in training. After much discussion, Vox is set to roll the dice, as per our recent discussion. We also have a deal for you - and for NeuD if they would like to be part of this glorious endeavour. It would see us giving you a city and the free tech and future help against RP. (What's with RP anyway - they sit on the sidelines and tell people not to mess with their neighbours - because their neighbours are strong and unfriendly. Jeesh. Bunch of squid eaters.) And we need some cash now. We also need to discuss details and timing, and how we involve NeuD. Secrecy will be key to this. The PR campaign going on in the public forum right now is wonderful. I think we should also invent a war around the city we have built on Bob. Details on casualties. NeuD acting indignant in their foreign office thread. That kind of thing. Then if GS gets any wind of our mobilization currently going on, we have a great excuse. Also - I am pretty sure GS would be just as happy to see us get involved in an off-contient war that will weaken us. They will provide moral support but not much else. We see this happening sooner than later. We will be set to go in 8 to 10 turns. We would like 3 galleys with two units per galley - but given the tight time line and if NeuD is involved, then 2 galleys from each of you would be 4 in total. We will have 1. That will make 10 units landing behind the lines. And our main force coming from the north. Let me know when you will be able to talk. We should be careful - if folks see us sliding into chat rooms to talk - they might start to wonder. Any ideas? And I presume you are still up for this. If not - please have the decency to tell me up front. Thanks Ghengis. May you live long and fight! ......... Beta.

No one ever said anything about a city on Bob. They better do some fast talking in my opinion.

	24-03-2003 23:06									#5
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Oh, we'll 'invent some war' for them.

What do they know of RP, though. What was the extent of that conversation?

I, for one, am done talking to these guys.

Last edited by UnOrthOdOx on 24-03-2003 at 23:15

	24-03-2003 23:44									#6
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quote: Originally posted by UnOrthOdOx Oh, we'll 'invent some war' for them. What do they know of RP, though. What was the extent of that conversation? I, for one, am done talking to these guys.

They know that Roleplay has the entire southern half of the continent and virtually all of the luxuries.

They seemed to be willing to trade maps even.

	25-03-2003 00:17									#7
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Some thoughts:

Well, In my "message" I had mentioned it would not be in the long-term interests of any member of Bob that a non-Bob civ settle in our continent as they could use it as a jumping-off point for a major invasion later on. Even 1 city can be used for this purpose. I don't buy Vox's peacefull intentions for one minute, this is a legitimate act of war, and we should kick them out of the continent.

I am sure that ND will agree to this, RP perhaps too. Still, maybe us and ND is enough.

Now what REALLY worries me is not so much Vox but GS. Perhaps it is unjustified but I have a lot of respect for that team, and they are surely up to something. If we can wipe them out before they become an even greater threat, that'd be great.

-MZ

	25-03-2003 01:02									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Now what REALLY worries me is not so much Vox but GS. Perhaps it is unjustified but I have a lot of respect for that team, and they are surely up to something. If we can wipe them out before they become an even greater threat, that'd be great. -MZ

I fully agree, which is why I would like to find some way to use Vox against GS. I am afraid that the city founding may have sealed their fate however.

	25-03-2003 02:20									#9
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It was said on another thread that If we were to invade Vox, GS would do the same to deny us their cities. What would happen if the reverse ocurred?

Also, I fear the worst if ND and us were involved in that conflict and RP decided to stay out of it.

Another thought. Don't you think GS is perhaps thinking about striking Lego? They may represent a greater threat in the long term as there is unlikely a way which GS by itself could conquer Bob. And there is no other civ in Lego's continent which might in theory come to their assistance. Perhaps Vox's "invasion" is a way to distract attention from the real plans (hence the reason why Vox is doing it alone so far).

Screw this, let's kick some GS butt.

	25-03-2003 02:47									#10
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Correct me if I am wrong, but they could load troops in a galley, move them to that city, unload them, and the units still get to move.

I dont have the sav in front of me at work, so I cant confirm it. That is just too dangerous.

Bonk some immortal heads GF.

	25-03-2003 03:50									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Correct me if I am wrong, but they could load troops in a galley, move them to that city, unload them, and the units still get to move. I dont have the sav in front of me at work, so I cant confirm it. That is just too dangerous. Bonk some immortal heads GF.

Yes they can, and that's what makes just 1 city so damn useful as a springboard for a major invasion. This city is just a tip of the iceberg, let's hope there isn't an invasion fleet off shore...

	25-03-2003 03:54									#12
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quote: The WAR of RETRIBUTION II

We need better war names

Maybe we should name wars that are over... like the original war of Retribution should become something more creative (I don't have the type of creativity, so other people go ahead)

	25-03-2003 04:22									#13
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How about the second Luxian War?

	25-03-2003 04:27									#14
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I think we call every war the same name

	25-03-2003 05:02									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I think we call every war the same name

But its always their fault........

	25-03-2003 05:55									#16
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WAR OF EVEN LATEST RETRIBUTION VII

	25-03-2003 06:44									#17
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Vox is GIVING us the city this turn, in return we agree to send 1-3 galleys of Horsemen to fight GS (something we seem to want to do anyway).

	25-03-2003 08:59									#18
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I was in the chat for a while (wasn't paying attention at first until donegeal slapped me with a trout and woke me up )

It seems Vox is acting really strange. Either this was the most stupid thing they have ever done or they are still hiding something.

And I am STILL worried about what GS is up to. Nothing good I am sure. From what I heard about earlier, it seems wierd that suddenly Vox springs into action, looking first for a fight on Bob and now war against their neighbor...

	25-03-2003 10:13									#19
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I was ambassador to Vox Controli and I talked to Beta alot. I dont know just how much information was shared between the two of you, but there was alot that we shared.

-Vox is big on bluff. They survived few times just by bluffing. GS could have wiped them out very early on in the game but they discouraged them by pretending that their continent was connected and Lux(well they didnt know it was lux then) can come to aid them.

-Vox team is unfourtunately undermanned and has poor organization. It's really not their fault, but that equals to alot of mistakes. (somethign Im all too familiar with )

-Unless something happened after Lux was extinct, Vox and GS werent in good terms. Vox had us (when we were FAR superior compared to them) close just in case GS would make move agst them. GS back then couldnt have had a friendly relations because Vox had nothign to offer. Only reason why Vox wasnt gobbled up for more territory was stated above and GS had logistics problem (WC would have been vulnerable in moutainous region) Since they have Immortals and most of our assets went to Vox, things may have changed, but GS probably still wont be completely friendly to them because of Immortal threat.

-I'd worry about some kind of cooperation between ND and Vox. That would be the most likely of all the joint scenario. (GS being least then RP)

-If I were to look at the MOST OPTIMISTIC POV, This is how I would analyze the situation:

Vox is suffocating because GS is right under them with no room to expand south. the northern part of island isnt too large and they are seeking a place to expand. Since Lux's previous space is free (and very close to Vox) They probably thought the only frontier they have available would be to grab that space. In that way, even if War between GS erupts, Vox's existence is guaranteed. But now, they meet all this objection by world community, seeing them as threathening etc, but they have nowhere else to settle. Their only option then is to press southward. Something they cannot do alone. So they will give away the city for an aid to help them expand southward.

-Most pessimistic POV.

Somehow, GS and Vox agreed to an allaince/friendly relations, Vox seeking to expans to new continent, realizes they made error. Abandons invasion process for now, seeks civ like ND capable of pincer attacking us while we send troops to GS. Ask us to help them in phony war agst GS.

Last edited by Zero on 25-03-2003 at 10:26

	25-03-2003 11:34									#20
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The is a lot of logic in the optimistic PoV if you ask me. BetaHound's attitude also seems to suggest this possibility.

Of course, the pessimist PoV is also a possiblity. Honestly I don't trust them. I don't trust anybody. Victory in this game is knowing who to attack at the moment they are weakest so that they may not do the same to you. That means friend or foe...

Last edited by Master Zen on 25-03-2003 at 11:52

	25-03-2003 22:31									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The is a lot of logic in the optimistic PoV if you ask me. BetaHound's attitude also seems to suggest this possibility. Of course, the pessimist PoV is also a possiblity. Honestly I don't trust them. I don't trust anybody. Victory in this game is knowing who to attack at the moment they are weakest so that they may not do the same to you. That means friend or foe...

optimistic POV is very much a possibility, considering just how much I am familiar with Vox's problem of no room to expand. In fact, just recently I saw in a public forum GS and Vox stating the same fact I have stated. GS has incentive to support Vox from expanding away form their continent (They monopololize more of their own continent w/o security risk) and Vox has incentive to expand out of continent (They cant handle GS... just as I thought).

There is 2 solution to this problem: Originally I only thoguth of one, but inlight of the new situation we can try the second plan (which i think is much more benficial to us)

1. We discourage Vox from expanding into our continent by helping them expand in their own continent. As a price for our effort, we will gain their settled city as well as anything they are willing to deal out. This will place us in war with the GS.

2. We put both Mil alliance agst GS and anti-Vox invasion campaign on hold and attack ND. Since ND is the biggest badboy in our continent, we could use an extra immortal help. We are gonna have to take care of ND at one point anyway, and if we leave them alone, they will just end up getting bigger and bigger headache for later. Vox will be forced to join our military crusade whether they like it or not because of the current situation (ND declared war on them) And if that doesnt take enough to convince Vox to help us, we can promise the next war will be targetted toward GS and They will be allowed to colonize whatever they get from GS as they move out of our continent.

	25-03-2003 22:52									#22
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Well now that ND officially declared war on them...

If Vox has 10 immortals like they claim, they can surely land them supposeddly to fight ND. As ND reacts, we strike against ND. I like it, I like it...

And I for one would intend to keep my word at attacking GS.

Questions:

1) If Vox committs itself with us and RP for a war against ND, how will we know that GS will not use this opportunity to strike at Vox? That's what I'd do...

2) Would RP get a little too poweful if they had a share of the spoils from war with ND?

3) Are we militarily capable of taking out ND?

other than these naggin' doubts, I fully support War Plan II

	25-03-2003 23:15									#23
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No, we are currently not capable of taking out ND militarily on our own. Fortunately, with the city placement strat we have been following, I think ND could not take us out even if it had the help of RP. Most of our cities are built on hills. Each spear defends like a Hopolite. Who want to fight Hopolites in the ancient age?

	26-03-2003 02:06									#24
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We go foreward with the GS campaign, wait for chivalry, then get RP and split Bob with ND.

	29-03-2003 03:00									#25
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CalcII's assesment of Vox doesn't surprise me. Immortals could be used to bully. It seemed Trip used the same tactics, trying to claim more than he could. I think we should delay sending the horsemen until we have a clear idea what's going on. If Vox is a phony, they'll probably pull a Bush League tactic like attacking us anyway.


If the optimistic POV is true, then all we'll suffer is a rep hit, maybe smaller if we justify it, if the pessimistic POV is true, we are risking extinction (from 3 civs).