24-03-2003 20:24									#1
	Ask an ex-Luxian: Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Ok, I'm guessing alot of you guys have many questions you want to ask to a Luxian w/ full disclosure on their secrets. Sadly, there was no historical record, just my memory and bunch of chat text on my HD.

Ask me a Q. I'll try to answer it the best as I can.

	24-03-2003 20:32									#2
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Why is the Lux Forum still there?

	24-03-2003 20:42									#3
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I dunno, but I still have access to it.

	25-03-2003 05:34									#4
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What was the Luxian deal with Vox to move to their continent?

Oh, and welcome aboard!!!

	25-03-2003 08:15									#5
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal What was the Luxian deal with Vox to move to their continent? Oh, and welcome aboard!!!

perma alliance, full tech sharing, whopping amt of Gold and GPT... etc.

EDIT: original doc found.

quote: The Lux Invicta team and Vox Controli team hereby agree to all of the following: - On the turn of 1550 BC, the Vox Controli team hereby agrees to send the Lux Invicta team a trade offering the city "Portia" with the status of "ACCEPTED" when sent. - This city will be held by the Lux Invicta team for an undetermined period of time until after Lux Invicta has built a new city on another continent or landmass, or later than that as otherwise agreed to by Vox Controli. When this aspect of the contract expires and the Lux Invicta team is set to relinquish control of "Portia", the Vox Controli team is hereby permitted to declare war on the Lux Invicta team, and regain control of the city. After this, the teams will then make peace at the earliest opportunity. - During the time of occupation of this city, the Lux Invicta team is hereby prohibited from settling any new cities on the continent upon which the Vox Controli team resides, unless agreed to by Vox Controli. They will not give possession of this city to any other team during the contract period, and will return the city to Vox Controli control via the process described above only at the conclusion of this treaty. During possession of this city, Lux Invicta agrees to produce at least one worker and to use that worker to either remove jungle from, and/or make improvements to, the tiles adjacent to "Portia". This worker will be left in the city for Vox Controli as per the re-possession process described above. - For compensation of this treaty, the Lux Invicta team hereby agrees to send to the Vox Controli team, a sum of 6 technologies total. 3 of these will be the free technologies given to scientific civilizations per era, and 3 other techs, one from each of the following eras remaining in the game. The actual techs to be given will be agreed to by the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams at the earliest and most convenient opportunity possible. Should this not be ahered to for reason of common decision by both the Lux Invicta or Vox Controli teams, this treaty is void. If there are other unavoidable problems not brought about directly by actions of either team, then a resolution to this situation will be negotiated by the two teams. - The Lux Invicta team also agrees to provide the Vox Controli the sum of 150 gold, minus whatever is found to be necessary to acquire the "Map Making" technology, as is needed by the Lux Invicta team. - From this day forward, the two teams of Lux Invicta and Vox Controli will swear an alliance of friendship with each other, forever coming to each others aid when necessary, and never acting towards each other in a hostile manner, except for the one condition mentioned above for the re-possession of "Portia". This term will lie in place until agreed to by both the Lux Invicta and Vox Controli teams to void it, should this ever be desired by both the teams. - The expiration of this contract will take place only when officially declared VOID by both teams. From that point on, the status quo will be re-established, minus the terms of this agreement which have set forth as otherwise. The Vox Controli team will then regain control of the city "Portia" by any means deemed necessary. Lux Invicta Document signed as official by 'Trip', King of the Lux Invicta team. 1550 BC Document signed as official by 'BetaHound', Voice of Foreign Affairs for Vox Controli. 1550BC

	25-03-2003 08:35									#6
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And what part of this agreement was Lux not adhereing to ? (or adhereing to "the spirit of"). ie what did Lux/Vox do that caused them to take the city back.

Also...what do you know about the payoff Vox did to GS. Apparantly they had to pay some of that Luxian gold to GS.

	25-03-2003 08:38									#7
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Hmmm, I don't see how the free tech thing worked. Doesn' t Vox get those free techs already? I thought they were getting Monotheism for free so wouldn't that be redundant?

	25-03-2003 09:50									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel And what part of this agreement was Lux not adhereing to ? (or adhereing to "the spirit of"). ie what did Lux/Vox do that caused them to take the city back.

nuthing. They just thought we would be a burdern so they killed us off.

quote: Also...what do you know about the payoff Vox did to GS. Apparantly they had to pay some of that Luxian gold to GS.

As far as I know, thats bull. There's no evidence of GS recieving anything specific to ensure our survival. I think its somethign beta added in to the form to embellish importance of Vox's generosity.. Then again i may be wrong.

	25-03-2003 09:52									#9
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quote: Originally posted by =OttomusCeasar= Hmmm, I don't see how the free tech thing worked. Doesn' t Vox get those free techs already? I thought they were getting Monotheism for free so wouldn't that be redundant?

It wouldnt have if Vox traded all the era tech to us. In order for it to work we would have to research the last era tech by ourself, have the option to choose our free tech, and give it to vox... or we would have to risk it all on chance (its not 100% guarantee that you get mono)

	25-03-2003 10:25									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II As far as I know, thats bull. There's no evidence of GS recieving anything specific to ensure our survival. I think its somethign beta added in to the form to embellish importance of Vox's generosity.. Then again i may be wrong.

Calc...GS confirmed that they got money from Vox.
1. Because GS was pissed off that Vox sold Lux a city. GS says that Vox is scared of them and so when they demanded a tribute, Vox gave it to them
2. GS also said it was a payment to ensure that they kept quiet and did not announce the location of the Lux city.

I am trying to work out how close GS & Vox work together. Is it true that Vox is scared of GS...thus the reason why Vox wants our help to get rid of them.

OR are they in league, and this animosity between them simply fake, like we are publicly having with ND. If so, this sale of horses could be just an attempt to weaken us and allow an easier invasion for GS.

	25-03-2003 10:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel I am trying to work out how close GS & Vox work together. Is it true that Vox is scared of GS...thus the reason why Vox wants our help to get rid of them. OR are they in league, and this animosity between them simply fake, like we are publicly having with ND. If so, this sale of horses could be just an attempt to weaken us and allow an easier invasion for GS.

Goto War of retribution II thread. I've posted just about all Vox intelligence I have on top of my head (I happened to be Lux Vox ambassador you guys chose a perfect luxian to assimilate!)

Yes Vox is scared stiff of GS. You could see brown stains drooping down their legs.... But Im not too sure if this fact is up to date because Lux screwed up the balance of Vox-Gs by giving them alot of stuff (including Iron Working very early which I would say is the reason why they still exist)

But while Lux was in town, Vox was soooo low tier compared to GS. (GS is like very close to Bob continental civs science wise and maybe ND population wise!!!!)

Oh and you affirmed my hypothesis. The payment Vox made to GS was a tribute. The significance of tribute was probably far greater than "payment to keep Lux existence secret". This was exactly how I thought it happened.

One more thing: How many turns elapsed after Lux was out of the game? I just want to know if my info is still fresh.

	25-03-2003 18:05									#12
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Next Question....

What did Lux's final world map look like ?

I have just realised that GS and other teams who got Luxian members, would have a fair size of our map already ?

No wonder GS does not want to trade for our map.

	25-03-2003 22:16									#13
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good Q... I dont think the latest map survives. But I'll try diggint for it.

	25-03-2003 22:46									#14
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...at the least, bring up the last Lux save and post a screenie of the map.... if you can (I can't... don't have anything to make screenies). If you can't, give GF the save with the Lux password.

I think there were about 3-10 turns played. I know that is very vague, but I just didn't keep track...

By the terms of the contract, it seems that Vox flat out broke it. They cannot be trusted.

Calc, you seem to be harboring some ill will towards ND. Could you elaborate on the dealings (both negative and positive) Lux and yourself had with ND? Could you post Chat logs or tech trade treaties? What is the sorce of these feelings (or are they mostly because they are the ones who kicked Lux off bob?)?

Last edited by Donegeal on 25-03-2003 at 23:10

	27-03-2003 04:07									#15
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quote: By the terms of the contract, it seems that Vox flat out broke it. They cannot be trusted.

As much as I'd like to agree with you on this one, I know what the vox's arguement is and it's not a bad one. According to contract we were supposed to present them w/ 3 techs with our sci trait. They didnt think them being Sci would pose any problems. If they gave me sometime I would have explained it to them that we could have still gotten something other than mono, but they didnt even pm us and "took back" their city.

No doubt they are pulling the whole sci trait issue abit too far, and they recieved a whole lot of stuff from us before they convenitenly found a reason to finish us off, but it is still legitimate and the problem with sci trait in contract was genuine (Vox didnt plan on using this intentionally, their team is just full of mistakes). We "technically" didnt (or couldnt) fulfill the contract they thought they had

Thats another thing. Contract is worth sh*+ to Vox controlis. They always end up whining about contract they thoguht they had signed onto. There was this case where we were supposed to give them IW and pottery for 10 gold + 1 gpt(I think). We clearly made them aware that they owed us something in the future and they should research mysticism. Later when we were close to getting mysticism, Jon miller got real upset because he thought that we were going to share ALL techs that we acquire (ala communistic way). We got angry because they refused to trade mysticism for lower tech like Warrior code (something i thought would be fair if we agreed first trade was unfair toward us).

you should ask for vox's POV on this one as well. They had an interesting arguement.

Moral: Be clear and concise with vox controli.






I need GF's email addy.

I will send save file as soon as I get it.

	27-03-2003 04:10									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I can give you access to the save files, but I didnt want to do that before (wasnt quite sure if that would be considered "cheating") I see no reasons to protect a dead teams save file, so I will send a save file to GF.

quote: Calc, you seem to be harboring some ill will towards ND. Could you elaborate on the dealings (both negative and positive) Lux and yourself had with ND? Could you post Chat logs or tech trade treaties? What is the sorce of these feelings (or are they mostly because they are the ones who kicked Lux off bob?)?

Sure. I will dig up for chat logs with ND when I have time (but some threads that had chat logs and wasnt stored have been wiped out).

I personally dont have ill feeling toward ND, although the team in general did. You should know though, my perception of the game is that "ND will eventually win, oh my god they are too powerful, they started with an extra settler, OMG OMG"

Just keep that in mind when you hear my views on ND

Ack DP. I quoted myself instead of editting...

	27-03-2003 04:32									#17
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My address is GhengisFarb AT yahoo DOT com.

If you and MasterZen want me to forward the saves when I get them send me an email requesting it and I will add you to the list.

	27-03-2003 06:17									#18
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isent the email attachment. Hopefully u got them GF.

	28-03-2003 00:15									#19
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I sent you an e-mail too GF

	28-03-2003 08:08									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I sent both of you the save, I couldn't access Apoly at the time though.

	28-03-2003 11:54									#21
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I think I'm starting to grasp the mentality of Vox, it's pretty hard to explain in writting, I gues that first and foremost they are a very idiosyncratic team. They seem like the kind of people that mess up yet try all they can to put the blame on others to the point that they end up believing it.

Like Calc II said, every dealing with them must be crystal clear but still, they are still perhaps a trustworthy team if we can work around their nuisances. They are not the type of allies you want to have for a long time though, but they seem to be able to be trusted to accomplish something that is of course well within their interests, in this case wiping out GS.

I think it is in everyone's interest that GS be eliminated. Vox apparently will like the idea. The question is will ND? I'm thinking that ND's declaration of war towards Vox can serve as the maskirova. It may fool RP and GS into thinking that there will be a major effort against Vox while in fact it leaves us with a free hand to strike at GS.

Now the million-dollar question: can Vox with our aid crush GS?

	28-03-2003 13:29									#22
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I agree with your sentiment here MZ.
I also feel you are correct that ND distrust and angst against Vox could work to our favor tremondously. The reason is because of the answer to your million dollar question:
No, Vox, with our aid, cannot defeat GS.

However, Vox, with our aid (in troops) and that of ND (again with troops) can topple the strat genius of GS.
Like I said before, GS in control of all of Little Bob is something to fear. Vox in control of the same land is a joke.

But I diverge from the point of this thread. Sorry for hijacking your Thread Calc. I'll come up with some more questions when I'm not at work.

	30-03-2003 04:08									#23
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hahahah

	30-03-2003 04:24									#24
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I'm telling you Vox should be able to handle GS. They will have a horrendus amount of Immortals from all this building Warriors here to upgrade them there.

They are selling Monotheism to us, Roleplay, AND Lego. We help them out and we should be their favorite friends when this is over with. Hopefully able to twist them into attacking who we want them to (think Lego).

	30-03-2003 04:32									#25
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Vox cannot handle GS... but if they do end up spending all their treasury for upgrading immortals they might have a shot. How much is warrior to swordmen upgrade?

I cannot know for sure just how prepared GS is agst VOx. I'd say they would be very prepared because they should know for sure that they are next to the ancient powerhouse civ. GS is no joke team. They got alot of SPDGers. Im guessing they have plenty of wc to backup them up and I have a feeling they will use the WC's far more efficiently agst the Vox by picking them off before Immortas even have a chance attacking them.

	30-03-2003 05:50									#26
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It won't be too easy to pick of Immortals though. The immortals' 1-tile movement invariably means it is best moved though any terrain (in fact avoiding plains and grasslands would be ideal). If the immortals come up through rough terrain it would be extremely hard to pick them off with WC. Escorting them with some Spearmen will even make it much more tougher to knock out an Immortal stack.

In any case I think our best strategy is to employ Horsemen against their WC preferably as they cross flat terrain. If ND helps us out with some Swordsmen, even better.

	31-03-2003 07:50									#27
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Beta told me before that a good chunk of mountain cuts off vox from the GS, which was vital to their early survival... But if WE are the ones invading, we will have to cross the mountain and into the territory that even the Vox doesnt know (GS didnt permit investigating their territory). They're really strong so it would be safe to assume their territory permits quick growth.. aka good amount of grasslands.

	31-03-2003 08:04									#28
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Vox and GS have the two WEAKEST military strengths according to the military advisor. So, I'm thinking a sudden spurt of Immortal building could give Vox a 50%+ numerical superiority.