25-03-2003 07:38									#1
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Well it looks like we are having second thoughts on a war with GS. SO I think we should decide If we are we need to get going. The pros and cons have been well laid out and I think it is time for a final decision.

	25-03-2003 07:39									#2
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I vote yes

	25-03-2003 07:41									#3
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Macy, check out the RP thread for an added development...

	25-03-2003 07:46									#4
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Noted

	25-03-2003 07:48									#5
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I had this to say in response:
QUOTE] Originally posted by mjmacy
I think if we try to expand on BOB we will certainly be stoped by GOW and ND. Going agaisnt GS will be tought but if we don't we can sit out the rest of the game in N Estonia wondering what would have happened if we had took our shot at power when we had the chance. [/QUOTE]

	25-03-2003 08:22									#6
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Now or never.

	25-03-2003 08:33									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

well I had not realized that Neu Demo declared war on us.

How do we handle that threat? they may send over galleys with swordsmen. Which would mean we have troops tied up to defend against that.

	25-03-2003 09:13									#8
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we can't fight a two front war right now

I think that is obvious

we would need GoW to go at ND, and I don't think they would

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 10:31									#9
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We tell them that we are leaving. They want us off BOB so lets get off. Give the city to GOW as part of our deal and I just tell ND we are leaving.

	25-03-2003 10:32									#10
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do you think that they will quit like that?

they have been agerssive towards us for a long time..

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 10:33									#11
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THis is what we tell them
"WE say we were just seeing how serious these threts were. Now we know never to take and ND threat lightly."
We can tell them they can even remain at war with us until we completly leave. thus keeping up the facade.

	25-03-2003 10:34									#12
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Well we will have to find out I guess

	25-03-2003 10:35									#13
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quote: Originally posted by mjmacy THis is what we tell them "WE say we were just seeing how serious these threts were. Now we know never to take and ND threat lightly." We can tell them they can even remain at war with us until we completly leave. thus keeping up the facade.

we have been backing down to ND a lot

we ahve given them literature + 10 gold

for nothing!!

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 10:38									#14
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But it will keep us form a Two front war. IF we take over GS we will be strong enought to stand up to them. How Nice it would be to have all of Estonia.

	25-03-2003 10:41									#15
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Jon I see why you are agianst it. There are a lot of risks and possible hold ups. But when is there ever a plan without risks. Especially one involving war. I think this could be our best chance at getting into a real power position. I think we must take our shot. When are we going to get a better chance. We have the element of Suprise, this will not happen often.

	25-03-2003 10:57									#16
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but we don't want to take a sure loss

and unless ND backs off, and GoW assists us this will be

there is more than war to this game

and in tech speed and production, we are losing

I know this means we must act (some how), but if we don't make gainst against GS, we deffintiely lose

and there are so many things to say that something will go wrong

GoW - not assisting us, attacking us
ND - attacking us
GS - faster productino than us, might be boosting defenses right now (so we would end up even, not way ahead)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 13:26									#17
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I don't trust Glory of War. I felt like they are opportunists. I feel like they try to play civs against each other. True they weren't allied with Lux, but they certainly had no problem taking advantage over a weak nation. And that would be us if we are fighting a war with GS.

I still have little reason to not trust GS. True they don't repect us much. And we have little chance of winning in our current position.

we are between a rock and a hard place. True you have to take a chance to win. But I feel the chances of this succeeding are about 10 to 15%.

	25-03-2003 17:15									#18
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Once we are off the continent ND will be cool. Ghengis is going to talk to them so they don't mess with the ruse.

I agree that there are risks jon, but if we don't take any - we won't gain anything. And yes - I know we risk losing a lot.

And one day I want to target NeuD as well.

	25-03-2003 19:29									#19
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I've voted "Yes" - though I do not like it...what choice do we really have?

	25-03-2003 19:35									#20
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Please see my "Reasons For" post in jon's thread. I believe there are very compelling reasons for this - and a reasonable chance of success.

	25-03-2003 20:21									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I don't trust Glory of War. I felt like they are opportunists. I feel like they try to play civs against each other. True they weren't allied with Lux, but they certainly had no problem taking advantage over a weak nation. And that would be us if we are fighting a war with GS. I still have little reason to not trust GS. True they don't repect us much. And we have little chance of winning in our current position. we are between a rock and a hard place. True you have to take a chance to win. But I feel the chances of this succeeding are about 10 to 15%.

I feel similiar

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 20:58									#22
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can we truly trust anyone? SOmetimes you just have to have to take a gamble and bet on a person's word.

	25-03-2003 21:37									#23
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I give our chances of success at better than 50%.

	26-03-2003 05:14									#24
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Only 4 out of 9 have voted. Please read the reasons for thread and decide. We only have a few hours left to play this turn.

	26-03-2003 06:00									#25
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I am still thinking of it

I want to, but I ahve very serious misgivings (it seems as if we might be screwing ourselves over)

right now I agree with the 10-15% chance right now

Jon Miller

	26-03-2003 06:48									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller I am still thinking of it I want to, but I ahve very serious misgivings (it seems as if we might be screwing ourselves over) right now I agree with the 10-15% chance right now Jon Miller

WHAT! am I misreading this. we have a much better chance than 10-15%.

	26-03-2003 06:58									#27
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I agree Macy. It will not be easy - GS has probably the best collection of players - but we have a good plan - and with any luck - the element of surprise.

	26-03-2003 07:05									#28
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I see our choices as:

• Pull out of Bob and site tight on N. Estonia.
  
• Do a costly defensive war against both ND and GoW to stay on Bob.
  
• War with GS now.
  
• We get GoW to war ND with us. GoW keeps up their ruse about attacking us. After we cut ND down to size then GoW switches and joins us. GoW gets ND land which may have the resources they need and we get a corner of Bob. GoW would have an easier time reconstructing and protecting the old ND land than they would with separated cities down RP way. We both have a chance to grow before we take on GS or RP. Problem is, GS continues to grow and we must continue to appease them. When we do decide to attack GS or RP the other will realize that Vox and GoW have an alliance and that they are next so we will end up fighting both of them.
  
• Get RP to help us against ND and GoW. I don't know if they will go for this.
  

	26-03-2003 08:06									#29
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I thought the GoW-Vox alliance against NeuD had promise as well. But I think that was too close to home for GoW. I think they are actually scared of NeuD because they don't have iron - and as the map clearly shows, NeuD has them trapped against the north coast. And I think NeuD needs GoW because they are in the middle and don't trust RP. So anyway you cut it, it is hard to set one against the other.

In fact, Gehnegis tonight mentioned the GoW, NeuD, Vox alliance going after GS, RP, and Lego in that order. So they see NeuD and them together all the way. Something we should keep in mind.

Other than that - I agree with your anaysis Harry.

	26-03-2003 09:19									#30
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Beta what do all of those badges mean. i know Vox but what are the others?