25-03-2003 09:27									#1
	reasonings Support Apolyton

reasons not to go to war with GS========

why does GoW need our city *this turn*?

aren't two front wars bad?

ND has declared war on us

ND and GoW have been freinds (allies even)

ND has lied to us (And stolen from us)

GoW appears to have lied to us (I know he lied to me in the chat last saturday)

reasons to war with GS=====

they are weak right now

GoW said they will support us

we have immortals, they have nothing

they have no allies

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:34									#2
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right now I am deffinitely in the not camp

if GoW is allied with us, we would need them to keep ND off our backs (I don't tihink they would do that)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:36									#3
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reason not

GoW is dependent on RP for horses

therefore they will do anything RP says (and are not trustworthy allies)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:39									#4
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not sure if pro or against

GS has way more research than us (well over 40 a turn)

GS has more production than us (reason why we must not go at them alone)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:43									#5
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reason not

GoW declared war with us (there is no knowing whether this is a trick or the real thing)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:47									#6
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reason not

how are we going to keep up on research once we do not have a tech deal with GS

reason for

having GS cities would be nice (for TEch and Production)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 09:48									#7
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reason for

I asked for horses (From GS)

they said they could not give them to us (maybe no horses)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 10:19									#8
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against

nbarclay talked about military expenses (if they make a better military, and we are even when we start fighting, we don't stand a chance)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 10:36									#9
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WE are even right now. Not after we build our great Warrior to Immortal army.

	25-03-2003 10:48									#10
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reasons against

but if they are building too

and we have to worry about ND (nothing ND has done has shown them as being reasonible)

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 11:10									#11
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reason agaisnt

RP might be sending troops, and they really seem to not be on our side

Jon Miller

	25-03-2003 13:20									#12
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great way to increase your post count.

I do agree about this being the best time to increase our power. but I have serious concerns over New Demo.

	25-03-2003 17:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident great way to increase your post count.

True.

The point of concern over a two fron war is gone immediately after we leave the continent. Period. They cannot afford to invade us. They would realize the cost of that. Nor do they have the galleys for it.

We have three choices -

1. the GS plan
2. stay on the continent and fight GoW and NeuD. And there is no way RP will get involved. And there is no way to stay there and avoid a fight.
3. settle back into north estonia and do nothing.

I vote for number 1.

	25-03-2003 19:26									#14
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I agree with Beta. These our my thoughts exactly

	25-03-2003 19:31									#15
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REASONINGS FOR:

It is a good plan, and addresses most if not all of your concerns jon.

We will have the force. My last calculations indicate we could have 14 new immortals in 10 turns. More if we wait until turn 14 or so. In additin to the 3 we have now that is 17. Plus 6 spearmen. Plus 3 additininal warriors down south to upgrade. Plus a golden age once we start the conflict which should boost production further.

We should have surprise if all goes well. GS will get wind of what is up when we take out the northern warrior - that gives us 6 or 7 turns before we take the first city. And they do have norhern cities - and the more we wipe out quickly, their capability to produce drops.

The recent tensions with NeuD and GoW set this plan up well. GS will be further calmed and pleased to see us throwing troops into a continental war. This should further discourage them from increasing militarty production.

The monetary does not work both ways. A big chunk of the change is coming from GoW, and indirectly, NeuD. 250 gold. Also - now that I think of it - we could strike a deal to sell GoW Republic - probably on a per turn basis - say 12 per turn. We have already broken the new deal with GS by offering currency to RP. May as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb. And may as well get more gold out of the deal.

The deals in the works now bring in 450 gold (250 GoW and 200 Lego) and 220 gold as 11 per turn with RP. Another 240 as 12 per turn will ensure the war does not bankrupt us - and will allow further upgrades if necessary. Just disconnect and reconnect the iron again.

One thing I forgot to mention about the Lego deal, they were actually thinking of pulling out of the GS deal. They were not happy with the way GS handled it - and our proposal of last night sealed both ends of the deal. But GS does not, nor will they, know about it. vondrack is the one person I most trust so far in this game.

GS is clearly tiring of having us as a weak trading partner. We go along with the proposed amendments. But we say we are researching monarchy and have buyers and will share the cash we get. We also, obviously, do not tell them we are trading currency and republic. By the time they get wind of that, Immortals will be coming over the hills. But in the meantime, IT IS IMPORTANT that we play the role of the weak and needy northen neighbour who has made the huge strategic error of trying to expand on the continent and is now losing units and production to such folly. Besides - this should be fun. And we ask for a war loan - repayable with interest in 30 turns. Will mean less money in their treasury for rush jobs.

I don't see horses as being critical. Nice - yes - but not critical. Having 4 or 6 GS horsemen behind their lines will be useful, as will our landing of an Immortal and spearman somewhere on the east coast. All this should help distract from the main force. And there is no way I can see that anyone can come rushing to their aid. Lego may hold out the olive branch to save them as per the Lux idea, but then again - vondrack was not too happy with them when I chatted with him last night. I think GS approaches every team with an air of superiority. That might be getting them into problems.

Afterwards- and assuming we are succesful - we will have no problems holding our own in technology. And Lego will clearly be an ally and trading partner.

And I have no problem giving the city to GoW this turn. It is part of the deal. They are committed to the plan - once it is agreed upon. Ghengis says they stand by their deals. Yes - NeuD is very touchy about the continent - xenophobic almost - and I don't undrestand it either. But in this case - it works in our favor. It covers our preparation tracks nicely - and should keep GS calm and amused.

If we want to fight it out on the continent, I have no doubt we will do OK. A second GoW horseman - an elite was visible on the save this morning. If they didn't actually attack any Lux units - how did they do that. I suspect they and NeuD have implemented the Gladiator approach to try and produce great leaders. But back to my point - we would make a good fight of it. It was almost amusing that GoW thought we would be scared when they said 6 NeuD swordsmen were heading our way. I can see our city defended with 3 spearmen, and 8 or so immortals clearly holding its own. The 6 swordsmen would be killed before they vene got a chance to attack. Horsemen are a different story - but it is still only 2 attack against 2 on defense - entrenched and eventually with walls. BUT - it would be a war of attrition. GoW and NeuD would not give up. And two civs against one - they would eventually wear us down. RP will not get involved - and I am sure neither GS nor Lego will either. And it would be very costly, for little or no gain.

So, if we are going to gamble and fight, and I think given our position we need to - let's choose the option that gives us a decent chance of success, and a much higher reward.

And that is GS. Operation Immortal Beloved.

GO or NO GO???

I say .... GO!!!!!!

	25-03-2003 19:32									#16
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jon - please note that was done as one post.

	25-03-2003 20:55									#17
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I think my stance is clear on the issue. In my opinion Operation Immortal beloved is a GO.

	26-03-2003 07:49									#18
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quote: If we want to fight it out on the continent, I have no doubt we will do OK. A second GoW horseman - an elite was visible on the save this morning. If they didn't actually attack any Lux units - how did they do that.

You can get elite units off barbarians. You just can not get leaders off them. This brings up another area where the over civs have an advantage. Due to our small land area being completely covered or at least visible by units, there is no fog of war to generate barbarians. Other civs have been, and probably are still, making money and promoting units by attacking barbarians.

	26-03-2003 07:59									#19
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Yes - good point.

	26-03-2003 22:47									#20
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Trip posted this in the intersite game forum regarding a discussion about longer term strategic plans and alliances that were being bounced around. Thought it was relevant. Still doesn't change my mind. But there will be fall out.

start of quote

I'll say it once and I'll say it again: backstabbing your neighbor who you're allied with is a reputation hit that you will never recover from. All the other civs will immediately be wary of us, and afraid to get closer to us for fear of us attacking them.

As I've said before, we should simply remain neutral until we pick the side we wish. We can then throw all the justification we want with either side without being known as "backstabbers."

end of quote

	26-03-2003 23:30									#21
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We have no choice but to fight with GS. But without external help we wont be able to accomplish much.

	27-03-2003 08:38									#22
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YES! We need more land and if GoW, and NeuD and the others don't want us on 'their' continent then we definitely need to have our own continent to play with, the small amount of space we have can only support one maybe two more cities!

	28-03-2003 00:49									#23
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We can put a few more south of Elipolis. Our main problem is that very few of our cities will have much production.

	28-03-2003 01:25									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Eli We have no choice but to fight with GS. But without external help we wont be able to accomplish much.

If we catch them a bit by suprise - and take out a couple cities early - and with at least a limited number of troops in their back field - and pump up production of warriors after the initial wave in order to have a second wave of Immortals if our first rush falters, I think we will do OK.

But I agree - more outside help would be nice.

	28-03-2003 08:47									#25
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remember we will be in a golden Age. Production should go up a lot

	28-03-2003 09:10									#26
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Yup - in some respects a bit of a waste of the GA, but given what we are gambling for, well worth it.

	28-03-2003 21:23									#27
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Actually, we will not waste that much of our GA. Most of our tiles only produce one shield and commerce so a second one can be added without Despot loss. We will not benefit on hills so in this case a flat tile is better. Question is, do we want to switch to Republic before at trigger the GA or wait until our GA is over so we do not waste part of our GA in anarchy. If GoW takes out the GS warrior near Elipolis we would have time to make the switch to Republic before our Immortals fight their first battle. We should have any pop-rusing in Dissidentville finished before then so I do not see any reason to stay in Despotism.

	28-03-2003 21:25									#28
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yes, I think switching to Rep. could be a big bonus.

	29-03-2003 00:16									#29
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I say we do not switch. We will have 4-6 turns of anarchy - and there is no way we can afford that. And we may need to utilize pop rushing for a lst push to victory. I realize the economic disadvantages, but don't think we can afford it in the very short term.

	29-03-2003 00:50									#30
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The advantage of saying a Despot is that any cities we conquer with a few citizens can be used to pop-rush. Since those cities may not have access to any luxuries until we conquer some they will likely have starvation problems. Pop-rushing will solve that quickly.