25-03-2003 19:48									#1
	Ghengis' New Grand Scheme. Full PM-box? Change here!

My new idea for a Grand Scheme.

We are committed to exterminate RP with ND.
Vox wants help to exterminate GS.
Lego is blocky.

We agree to send the 6 Horsemen to jumpstart the GS/Vox war, and it may be enough to shift the war to a Vox victory. We let Roleplay know we are fighting GS.

Then as Roleplay gets ready to smack ND (they will, I asure you, ND is their prime target IMO) we whack'em.

If we just whack'em they will bribe Lego and/or GS to join in their side, but if we force GS to commit to a war for their home continent they won't have the resources to assist Roleplay.

I suspect Lego will be too busy building Fortress Lego to help also.

Give it to me, rip my scheme apart!

	25-03-2003 22:19									#2
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How's about joint three way attack on ND? ND declared war on Vox!

(GS might help too if Vox bluffs well, making it look like they might concede their starting position.)

Also can You trust RP enough to give out such a valuable information? Telling them that we are sending 6 horsemen to Vox is like telling them Our city gates are practically open. If they are really devious, they can sell ND this info, divert their troops unto us and take ND for themselves

Last edited by Zero on 25-03-2003 at 22:37

	25-03-2003 22:51									#3
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Is there anyway to convince ND to go after GS first?

Vox has proven to be SO STUPID that I personally would have a problem with them controling the entire continent (they would probably screw up and build their FP right next to their Cap because it can build it quick...OT vermin...)

	25-03-2003 22:59									#4
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I like Calc II's plan on a three-way alliance to crush ND. They are a much greater threat than Vox. We could use 10 immortals in support...

You should all read the last couple of posts in the Ask an Ex-Luxian thread

	25-03-2003 23:17									#5
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Why are you so worried about ND? they would be insane to attack us, even with RP help. ND will not attack us. The fight would end in a draw and leave both ND and GoW at the mercy of GS or Lego.

	26-03-2003 01:14									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Calc II How's about joint three way attack on ND? ND declared war on Vox!

Here is a bit of history for Calc II and Master Zen.

The ND/GoW treaty. Both have signed and agreed:

quote: Contract between Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War. Both parties agree that this treaty has to be handled confidentionally and is for our eyes only. Neither party is allowed to talk about this or to post any details about this in the public forum of Apolyton. As per the map titled Glory of War - Neu Demogyptica Territorial Agreement (territorymarked.jpg) which is attached to this document. 1. ND is to found the city here fore refered to as "Irongard". Once this city, the iron in its city radius and the two empires of Neu Demogyptia and the Glory of War are all connected, then a trade of Iron from Neu Demogyptia to the Glory of War is to be made. In game, it will say that this trade will expire in 20 turns. Once this time expires, the deal will be continued. The trade will continue either until the Emipre of Spain (the Roleplay team) is eliminated, or if a mutual agreement is made to end the war early. Then Neu Demogyptia will gift the city referred to as Irongard to the Glory of War. 2. The area of Lux Invicta shall be settled on the north coast by the Glory of War and on the East coast by Neu Demogyptia in order to prevent Vox Controli from settling on the Continent of Bob. Again, upon the elimination of Spain, the cities in this area are all to be gifted to Glory of War. An adequate compensation for cities that will be giftet is subject to further negotiations. Valuations of cities are to be finalised before war is declared on Roleplay. Non-agreement on a valuation method will allow either team to void this contract. 3. Neu Demogyptica and the Glory of War will declare war on the Roleplay team on the same turn. This turn is not yet decided, but it must be agreed to by both teams at least 20 turns beforehand or later if mutually agreed upon. At least 10 swordsmen from Neu Demogyptica and 10 horsemen from the Glory of War are to be used in attacking Roleplay. This is an absolute minimum, and it is expected that teams will produce more than this. 4. a) Both teams agree to work together in technology research. Details will be worked out in a separate treaty. b) Limited trading will be allowed between both teams and Roleplay team. This will stay in effect until the simultaneous declaration of war on Roleplay. Every trade that either team makes with Roleplay must be agreed upon by both teams. 5. A Right of Passage will be agreed to by both teams. This will not be an in game agreement, but one that allows the transport of troops through one another's territory. Neu Demogyptia will leave Glory of War worker stacks unmolested inside the cultural border of Neu Demogyptia to facilitate the clearing of the vast southern jungle. 6. After the Roleplay team is defeated, the enitire continent will be scruitinized, and divided up by exactly 50%. This includes 50% of the tiles and 50% of the resources. 7. This contract cannot be denounced by either team before the Roleplay-Team is defeated and the changing of towns has been done. After fullfilling the changes of towns, the contract can be denounced observing a 30 turns-period of notice. 8. There will be a nonagression treaty in place between th Glory of War and Neu Demogyptia for the duration of this agreement.

	26-03-2003 01:18									#7
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RP is by far the more dangerous threat than ND, they are extremely backstabbing and devious AND they are in a position to become too powerful to defeat without help.

GS is too powerful on their little continent as apparent by the way they have made Vox their "*****" civ. I believe we can hande ND and Vox as future opponents in the aftermath easier than super powerful GS and Roleplay as opponents.

Also, this leaves ND and Vox as the civs on the front lines causing them to take more of the direct counterattacks from GS and Roleplay.

	26-03-2003 01:51									#8
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No backstabbing ND, now

I support Ghengis' plan, although we probably:
1. should confirm with ND before we put it in motion.
2. We should wait until we get chivalry before RP attacks (we can perform against GS with horsemen).
3. Also, don't ally with Vox until they are off the continent.
4. Make sure that we are adequatly defended against either:
a) Lego oppertunity attack
b) GS or RP naval landing
c) double crossing ND (not likely), or Vox (more likely but not probable)

	28-03-2003 18:56									#9
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Well, Vox is now off continent. I think we should start think more about this plan.

I my opinion, We need to do something about GS. They are our biggest threat, and I see an oppertunity here.
Like GF suggested, assiting Vox in a Little Bob war would be needed as Vox is a blithering group of fools (I still like Betahound. I think he must be getting out voted. Woof! Woof!). I am so worried about GS that I think that they need to be removed now. Unfortunately, I do not think that a Vox/Gow campaign would work to eliminate GS. I do, however, think that a Vox/GoW/ND (and maybe RP, but that is a different issue) teaming would be sucsessful. Lets help Vox expand and take some GS land. If we send at least 6 horse and ND sends 6 sword, then Vox supplies the rest, GS could be crushed either out of exsitance, or made a small time player where Vox is more powerful on their continent (this is what I would prefer as it would make all those strat forum guys stuck on a minor team with no hope of getting out. Let Vox have all the cities there (we keep the ones we take until the conclusion of the war/start of RP war) as they would be both too corrupt and too difficult to defend.

Now I know that 6 horse sounds like alot, but the benifits are enormous. It would temporarily leave us without much offensive capabilities on Bob, but would not harm our defensive capabilities. Plus, any horse that returned from a Vox/GS war would be elite and primed for GL's.

The trick in this matter is ND (as always). They do not like Vox and would be very hesitant to make a deal with them. In order to get ND on this plan we would need to convince Darekill. I think that if we can convince him then he would be able to sway his people.

Tell me what you guys think. If you like it, I will try to contact Darekill and see what he is thinking.

	28-03-2003 19:26									#10
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Donegeal, could you just wait to contact Darekill until GF posts what he has said to ND about this. Then, when we know what ND knows, go ahead and contact them, Donegeal.

	28-03-2003 20:09									#11
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All of this money they are making off Monotheism is being used to upgrade Warriors to Immortals, I think they have three cities cranking out warriors and a few to upgrade them.

They are going to swarm GS with Immortals.

	28-03-2003 21:35									#12
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I had posted this in the ask an ex-Luxian thread but perhaps it is much more appropriate here:

quote: I think I'm starting to grasp the mentality of Vox, it's pretty hard to explain in writting, I gues that first and foremost they are a very idiosyncratic team. They seem like the kind of people that mess up yet try all they can to put the blame on others to the point that they end up believing it. Like Calc II said, every dealing with them must be crystal clear but still, they are still perhaps a trustworthy team if we can work around their nuisances. They are not the type of allies you want to have for a long time though, but they seem to be able to be trusted to accomplish something that is of course well within their interests, in this case wiping out GS. I think it is in everyone's interest that GS be eliminated. Vox apparently will like the idea. The question is will ND? I'm thinking that ND's declaration of war towards Vox can serve as the maskirova. It may fool RP and GS into thinking that there will be a major effort against Vox while in fact it leaves us with a free hand to strike at GS. Now the million-dollar question: can Vox with our aid crush GS?

donegeal had answered saying that Vox and GoW alone could probably not take on GS and that we would need ND's help.

	28-03-2003 22:16									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 Donegeal, could you just wait to contact Darekill until GF posts what he has said to ND about this. Then, when we know what ND knows, go ahead and contact them, Donegeal.

Don't worry... I'm not going to go off and start talking to ND with getting approval here first.

If I did, I might get an "Extra" put in front of my Horseman named "Mad Donegeal"....

	29-03-2003 00:03									#14
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I saw Togas online and cornered him in a chat room.

I told him that Vox gave us the city (Which they did, as far as I'm concerned. We did not have a written agreement.), and that Vox is interested in getting some assitance from GoW against GS. I mentioned to him that it would go a long ways if RP might be able to drop off some troops of their own. He was intreguied by the idea of letting Vox be in control of Little Bob.

Don't worry. I did not say that we had commited to anything. I only said that I had posted the idea of ganging up on GS with Vox and him. I didn't even mention ND. I told him to contact GF and he said to keep in touch with this idea. If you guys don't want RP involved with this, you guys can tell Togas that you dissed the idea and wrote it off as "to elaborate" or whatever.

I mentioned several time that I held no official Position with GoW and that these were just my thoughts on the situation.

Oh, and there has been lots of speculation about the terms of how we got the city. When he asked, I told him that Vox just gave it to us in return for "good will and intentions". We might want to let some of the transaction go public, or only tell people what happened as free "information" when trying to get on the good side of someone (like GS).

	29-03-2003 01:42									#15
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Donegeal: go ahead and contact ND now, just make sure that you post any correspondance in the ND FC thread. It doesn't look like GF has told them anything.

Another thing: I'm going to update the central trade thread now... please (anyone) look at it, and edit anything errant/wrong.

	29-03-2003 08:38									#16
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Crap. I have a "marriage class" this weekend and I will be unable to talk with ND until Sunday reguarding this. If one of you can catch a ND member online, please try to plead our case with our greatest friends. Convince them of GS long term threat (ie: which would they rather have control of Little Bob/Estonia? The Strat forum geniuses or the Off-Topic guys?)

	29-03-2003 09:37									#17
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quote: Originally posted by donegeal Convince them of GS long term threat (ie: which would they rather have control of Little Bob/Estonia? The Strat forum geniuses or the Off-Topic guys?)

Don't you see that this is another of Vox's plans of deceit? They hang out in the off-topic forum to make us think they're a bunch of chat junkies when In reality they have a secret forum in some remote server in Finland where they are plotting world domination at our expense???

	29-03-2003 17:49									#18
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I have a concern that we may be taking on a little too much.

We will want to eliminate RP as quickly as possible.... "shock & awe" springs to mind.

ND & RP will possibly stalemate each other, and we will tip the scales to our side when we join.

Similary, we will be tipping the scales to Vox if we commit 6 horsemen to the GS war.

But do we really want to just tip the scales ??

I would of much preferred if we take on each war individually. Eliminate RP as quick as possible, and then immediately switch to join a war with Vox against GS.

If GS gets involved while we war with RP, then we just give the signal to Vox that GS has troops on bob or on the water...and Vox should be able to take them.

However...that said... there are benefits to conducting both wars at the same time. But I do think our focus should be RP first....as it always has been.

How should we handle the diplomatics ?

When we declare war against RP, we can no longer deny that we have an alliance with ND. We could claim it is a temporary one, but I doubt any of the other teams would believe us.

The Vox alliance is different. Here I believe, we have the ability to truely claim that the units are of a mercenary nature. GS will be pissed of course, but we must ensure that everyone is told that we no longer have any interest in those horsemen. They are owned by Vox, and they can do as they wish with them. The game mechanics will show that the GoW is at war with GS, but we must claim the we officially are not at war.

We must do this, just in case the Vox war falls apart, and we need to distance ourselves from the conflict.

On the other hand, if the war goes well, we can always change our story, send over additional units, and then officially declare war.

We should name the six horsemen..Vox1, Vox2, etc etc. And I will continually tell GS, that we wish them luck against Vox, and that we do not care if the Horsemen are killed...The horsemen BELONG to Vox.

If GS gets nasty...(ie brings in Lego against us), I could even offer our mercenary units for GS to buy. The price would be extreme of course, and we can always decline. But will just add to the confusion.

Here are some questions...

Have we discussed with Vox, on the ownership of any cities that the Vox Horsemen take. Do they belong to Vox or GoW ? Surely would like least 1 city with a barracks that we could use for a fast heal...Can Vox temporarily gift us one.

Who controls the Horsemen ? If Vox demands that we attack a heavily forified city...just to soften it up for Vox immortals, are required to follow their orders ? Or can we choose our own targets ?
(This question comes back to who effectively owns the the horsemen)

If we have riders ? should we not upgrade the horsemen at the earliest opportunity ? ..Again, having a city with a barracks would be smart (And connection to a harbor for our/(ND) Iron)

And...I am sure I will have other questions...I will post them as I think of them.

ND sure do sound pissed that we got that city.
And I have a funny feeling that our alliance with ND is no longer a secret...No concrete evidence..just a feeling.

	29-03-2003 19:26									#19
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Our focus has always been roleplay we are ONLY providing 6 Horsemen to tip the scales in Vox's favor everything else is going into the war against Roleplay.

I think the deal requires us to give all the cities we capture on the Vox island to Vox. Has ND been sending you emails where they sound pissed? I wasn't aware they were upset as they were informed and knew about the city transfer before it happened.

PM from Darekill:

quote: We don't realy want Port isolation my post in the Forum is just to make some Nations belive that we are not the good friends that we are. Especialy Spain and GS have to belive there would be tensions.

	30-03-2003 18:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by GhengisFarb Has ND been sending you emails where they sound pissed? I wasn't aware they were upset as they were informed and knew about the city transfer before it happened.

GF - Its just the hairs on the back of my neck.

	30-03-2003 23:12									#21
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How long would it take to defeat RP? If we can guarantee a "shock and awe" victory then all's well.

What I would be afraid of during that time is if GS suddenly launched an attack against Vox while we are 100% commited to a RP war. I'm not so sure how plausible that is but I'm sure that if GS did it, they pretty much would have 100% chance of success knowing those people.

If GS took over Little Bob then our plans of wiping them out prematurely have gone to hell.

As to the question of horsemen, I would like Vox to indicate the general "use" for them, but we could always veto any of their decisions if say they wanted to use us as cannon fodder for example. We should be able to coordinate this war pretty well, as I said in another thread, perhaps use our horesman to harrass GS troops on open ground while the Immortals advance through rough terrain making them practically invincible.

Now what would REALLY screw us up is if GS attacked Vox before they finished upgrading...

Last edited by Master Zen on 31-03-2003 at 00:23

	31-03-2003 04:58									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Now what would REALLY screw us up is if GS attacked Vox before they finished upgrading...

This is what I fear as well. GS has just seen Vox give us a thirty shield city. That is shield and time spent in an effort that they abandoned with nothing to show from it. I think that GS is going to attack to get a stronger advantage on Little Bob very soon. This is why I think the urgentcy with GS should take precidance over RP.

The nature of the mercenary units (six Horseman) would be determined by the contract we agree to with Vox. I would be against any contract that gave them automous control over our units. I would be infavor of a contract that has stated goals (ie: These 6 Horseman units are to be commited to a war effort assiting Vox Controli against the Gathering Storm until the Gathering Storm has only three cities in its possesion or an acceptable peace arrangement can be made between Vox Controli and Gathering Storm. The first city taken in this conflict is to be gifted or retained by the Glory of War where it will be permitted to build a Barracks, one defensive unit and any additional Horseman that are needed for the length of the contract. At the conclusion of this conflict, this City, and all other Cities on Little Bob under GoW control are to be gifted to Vox Controli.).

Yeah... something along those lines....
It doesn't give us an out like just granting them control and distancing us from the conflict, but hey, we have one all ready. We're Mercs and GS never asked us how much it would cost!

	31-03-2003 05:13									#23
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quote: These 6 Horseman units are to be commited to a war effort assiting Vox Controli against the Gathering Storm until the Gathering Storm has only three cities in its possesion or an acceptable peace arrangement can be made between Vox Controli and Gathering Storm. The first city taken in this conflict is to be gifted or retained by the Glory of War where it will be permitted to build a Barracks, one defensive unit and any additional Horseman that are needed for the length of the contract. At the conclusion of this conflict, this City, and all other Cities on Little Bob under GoW control are to be gifted to Vox Controli.

any problems with me sending this to Vox so that we are clear about control of the units?

	31-03-2003 05:31									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Panzer32 any problems with me sending this to Vox so that we are clear about control of the units?

Seems alright to me

Perhaps we need to emphazise that the units will be under our control since it is not entirely clear.

	31-03-2003 05:34									#25
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No... that is a rough draft. It explans the control of the units, but if we are going to draw up a contract for something like this, I want tech included and the begining and end of the deal.

If you want to send Vox something to clear up the control of the units, try this:

The Units contracted to Vox Controli will be under Glory command to achieve a specific goal (ie: we want Glory to take city X). We would then take city X anyway possible under the terms of the overall contract. If resistance proves to great for this to happen, then a joint Warchat will be needed between each turn to coordinate the offensive between Vox Controli and the Glory of War against the Gathering Storm.

	31-03-2003 05:37									#26
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How about this:

quote: These 6 Horseman units are to be commited to a war effort assiting Vox Controli against the Gathering Storm until the Gathering Storm has only three cities in its possesion or an acceptable peace arrangement is made between Vox Controli and Gathering Storm. Vox Controli can specify the general usage of the the horsemen, but the Glory of War will determine the specific moves, and reserves the right to veto Vox's decision if the Glory of War feels its mission is too risky. The first city taken in this conflict is to be either gifted to or retained by the Glory of War where it will be permitted to build a Barracks, one defensive unit and any additional Horseman that are needed for the length of the contract. At the conclusion of this conflict, this City, and all other Cities on Little Bob under GoW control are to be gifted to Vox Controli.

	31-03-2003 05:39									#27
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DP with Donegeal.

Don - do you want to take that latest one and integrate what you are saying into it?

	31-03-2003 06:24									#28
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This depands on what we are trying to negotiate here. Are we just trying to let Vox know how the Glory units are going to be used or are we negotiating an overall contract?

If it is just for unit control, then I think what I wrote (the one with the city X example) could be sent to Vox as is. If it is an overall contract that we are going for here, then it will need to be more elaborate. Terms of a RoP and other issues (like I would love to have a Vox city gifted to us to start the war rather than take one and build on it) will need to be nogotiated.
Other issues include how far the war goes and Tech deals. Our contract with ND is until the destruction of RP and the division of Bob. Here, Vox is going to want to go for the Destruction of GS where I think it will be in our best interest to leave them hanging around with just a few cities. These are all matters that will need to be discussed.

	31-03-2003 06:32									#29
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I see in the absense thread that you are going to be gone for a bit Panzer. Did you want me to corner Betahound in a chat or something and beging negotiating on a contract? I will beable to have time to do it tommarow and the next day.

	31-03-2003 08:56									#30
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Donegeal: it is just for unit control. We don't want to start fighting a war, and have Vox all upset that they can't make our horsement kamikazee.

Go ahead and talk to Betahound; but send a copy of any PMs to mjmacy; he's technically their ambassador to us.