26-03-2003 01:05									#31
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As an American, my emotions have been on a roller coaster for the last week. Just to set things straight, I support the war. All of the logical arguments against it are absolute bunk. For example, the "illegal" thing. Sorry, but sorvereign states cannot, by definition, do anything illegal. The US constitution, not the UN charter, is the supreme governmental instrument of American citizens. So as long as the constitution and the laws of the US are being followed...

Anyway, the point of that little diatribe was that emotions are what are driving rational people's views on this war. I suspect that a lot of the anti-war fervor is just a lot of latent anti-Americanism, and the war and lackluster American economy pushes a lot of people over the brink.

As I think about these issues, I ask myself, how do I feel about Iraqis? Do I allow myself to fall into the same trap? It all came home to me a few days ago during a press report on people who have been defacing Saddam posters, etc. This act supposedly carries the death penalty. I now realize whose side I am on. Excuse my vernacular, but people with the sack to do that deserve our support. The American psyche strives to support and root for such people. And as we now see, we do not let others feelings of guilt for the past, smug (and unearned) superiority complexes, and straightforward envy get in the way of helping those who deserve our help. Forget the oil, the terrorist threat, the WOMD, forget all that. The Iraqi people themselves deserve better. The price is steep. Yes Iraqi civilians will die. I expect American and British and Australian civilians will die in terroist counter-attacks. Maybe me. Somewhere in Iraq there is an Iraqi striving to be free. That's whose side I am on.

	26-03-2003 01:05									#32
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Hooray, moderates!



Glad she's bouncing back, Tass.

	26-03-2003 01:10									#33
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I don't think you're sick or perhaps even a bastard. I think it's normal to feel that way, but you have to realize it and think why you feel that way, and is it ok?

For non-American it's not that hard to feel little good to see American POWs if you're against the US war there.
To feel 'well now they're getting some heat too, that's what you get when you attack' is perfectly normal in my opinion. Just as long as you don't really get addicted to it and perverted. If you feel bad after feeling that little thing, then I think you're just fine and normal. If you don't even feel bad about thinking that way, then you're definitely a bastard .

I do understand that it's harder for Americans to understand it, becuase even if someone doesn't support the war, it's still one of their own.. so it hurts little. And if someone says he felt little good about seeing someone who is afraid and just wants to get the hell out of there.. well it can be offending.

But it's like some Americans take little pleasure from seeing high Iraqi soldier body counts (not talking about civilians) and then maybe feel little bad because they're just people too.. I think it's pretty much the same and it's normal. As long as you are not actively wishing it to happen, and realize that it's not very cool.
Just my thoughts..

	26-03-2003 01:28									#34
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Just don't make it a habit, or you might be anti-american. People who are against the war must also remember that american soldiers are also people, and they don't get to decide if they must attack or not. If there is someone to blame, it's the leaders. Bush or Saddam, take your pick, let's keep the people out of the blame.

	26-03-2003 03:03									#35
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There's a simple reason why you felt pleasure, and it's not hatred of Americans. It's the pleasure one feels when a bully get's his come uppence. Hah! Take that, George Bush!


Then you remember, George is safe, and those are just scared kids. Then you remember why you're against war.

	26-03-2003 03:35									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH Nothing exciting so far, but when I saw the US soldiers captured by the Iraqis on TV, my first reaction was pleasure and satisfaction. I wanted the US to get a bloody nose in Iraq so much, that I actually enjoyed the obvious suffering of those POWs.

Do you also enjoy watching the numerous clips of the leaders of your country from the 1940's ruthlessly torturing, maiming, slaughtering, and gassing hundreds of thousands of men women and children? Do you rent Faces of Death movies and masturbate to them?

quote: Originally posted by Der PH At the moment I feel like an as***le, maybe I am one.

I would say so.

	26-03-2003 03:45									#37
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quote: Then you remember, George is safe, and those are just scared kids. Then you remember why you're against war.

If only he had taken Saddam's challenge to dual. That's a real leader, taking the hit for all the kids who are gonna die.

	26-03-2003 04:00									#38
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara There's a simple reason why you felt pleasure, and it's not hatred of Americans. It's the pleasure one feels when a bully get's his come uppence. Hah! Take that, George Bush! Then you remember, George is safe, and those are just scared kids. Then you remember why you're against war.

Instead of trying so hard to somehow make news, try watching it.
Have you seen the Iraqi people? Glad we're there, but mad they got b1tch-slapped last time by Hussein for dissention, because the worthless U.N. took their ball and went home?
Have you heard from Human Shields able to return home.
They tell of being asked, "When? When are they going to start ?", citing that they might commit suicide if the action didn't start soon, preferring suicide to living under the brutality, torture, and murder perpetrated by Hussein.

You go on, Che. Go protest. God forbid you actually watch, listen, or read.
I wouldn't want you to be informed or anything.
You don't have a clue.


When this is all over, and France and other's dirty laundry are out there flapping in the breeze, what will you say?
Hopefully, not a damned thing.





BTW, Bush was asked to debate, not duel.
Two points. The request was crap.
Had it beena duel, Hussein's punkass would be dead.

	26-03-2003 04:28									#39
	Re: Re: I become afraid of my own anti-Americanism Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin Do you also enjoy watching the numerous clips of the leaders of your country from the 1940's ruthlessly torturing, maiming, slaughtering, and gassing hundreds of thousands of men women and children? Do you rent Faces of Death movies and masturbate to them?

You have a quite sick fantasy...

	26-03-2003 04:34									#40
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You have a quite sick fantasy...

Not my fantasy.

In the initial post of this thread, he stated that "when I saw the US soldiers captured by the Iraqis on TV, my first reaction was pleasure and satisfaction."

Regardless of you feel about the parties involved in the war, if you can derive pleasure from seeing footage of captive people who will most likely suffer a slow, painfull, and degrading death ala Daniel Pearl than you are just the kind putrid SOB that WOULD have that fantasy.

	26-03-2003 04:36									#41
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Daniel Pearl will still be avenged.

	26-03-2003 04:38									#42
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quote: Originally posted by DaShi Or to think you've won.

Of course I think I've won


It would be like me saying: Bush is a torturer he kills for pleasure he's a dictator etc.. you would bring up logical arguments against that. That's what I do with people that say: Bomb them ****ers they ain't worth **** praise God.

These witty responses are pretty lame if you ask me. You achieved anything with it? No! then stop giving jerky answers please

	26-03-2003 04:38									#43
	Re: I become afraid of my own anti-Americanism Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Der PH Nothing exciting so far, but when I saw the US soldiers captured by the Iraqis on TV, my first reaction was pleasure and satisfaction. Reflecting these feelings I started to become very afraid of myself. How could I be happy, that human beings are captured, maybe mistreated and most possibly undergo their personal hell? I wanted the US to get a bloody nose in Iraq so much, that I actually enjoyed the obvious suffering of those POWs.

Der PH

This means that you have a sense of Nationalism. I know that Germans are brain washed from birth to try and breed out that "evil German Nationalism", but Germans and other Europeans still have nationalistic feelings. The U.S. is a rival with whom you have serioius disagreements with, and you enjoy it when they suffer setbacks & injuries. You aren't really thinking of the people on a personal level.The UNSC debate is an example of the strength of both French and German nationalism. They want to balance American power. Do you really think anyone would mention it if Guinea didn't support the war, but France, Russia, and China did. No way. Europeans are in reality reacting to the growth and assertion of American power, not to some enlightened feeling about the need for international justification.

Its O.K. to be nationalistic, even if you are a German. Nazi Germany didn't arise in a vaccuum, and Germany doesn't hold the sole responsibility for the Second World War. I think that it is time for people to allow the Germans to hold their heads up again.

	26-03-2003 04:39									#44
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Wait, Sloww -- You don't think Saddam could take Dubya in a fight? Secret service doesn't count...

	26-03-2003 04:39									#45
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quote: Not my fantasy. In the initial post of this thread, he stated that "when I saw the US soldiers captured by the Iraqis on TV, my first reaction was pleasure and satisfaction." Regardless of you feel about the parties involved in the war, if you can derive pleasure from seeing footage of captive people who will most likely suffer a slow, painfull, and degrading death ala Daniel Pearl than you are just the kind putrid SOB that WOULD have that fantasy.

It was certainly your fantasy that he would masturbate while watching videos.

And if you would spend a little time to think over his post you´d see that he actually admitted that he has problems with his own feelings (which means he´s aware that they may be wrong).

But of course shouting at him it is much easier...

	26-03-2003 04:39									#46
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Daniel Pearl will still be avenged.

Along with the 3000+ victims of 9/11.

There is plenty of evidence linking Saddams regime to the Al Qaeda. And for those of you who think I have fallen victim to American propaganda, the most convincing evidence I have found was on the BBC.

	26-03-2003 04:42									#47
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quote: Originally posted by CapitanGarlic Wait, Sloww -- You don't think Saddam could take Dubya in a fight? Secret service doesn't count...

W seems like he's in pretty good shape, and hes at least 15 years younger than Sadaam. I think that he'd give Sadaam a pretty good fight, especially if he's all hopped up on coke.

	26-03-2003 04:43									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin Along with the 3000+ victims of 9/11. There is plenty of evidence linking Saddams regime to the Al Qaeda. And for those of you who think I have fallen victim to American propaganda, the most convincing evidence I have found was on the BBC.

Instead of just saying you got evidence, you might want to show that evidence...

It's like saying like Iraq has WMD, which may be true, but I want proof before I am convinced, I'm sorry but that's just logical I think.

	26-03-2003 04:45									#49
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GW wold kick Hussein's ass up between his shoulder blades.

	26-03-2003 04:45									#50
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro It was certainly your fantasy that he would masturbate while watching videos. And if you would spend a little time to think over his post you´d see that he actually admitted that he has problems with his own feelings (which means he´s aware that they may be wrong). But of course shouting at him it is much easier...

My main problem with him is his pleasure at the prospect of someone elses pain and possibly death. Saying he might be aware he is wrong is inconsequential. If someone stabbed your whole family to death, and then said "Gee, I guess maybe I shouldn't have done that" going to stop you from hating him?

And for the record, I never shouted.

	26-03-2003 04:52									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin My main problem with him is his pleasure at the prospect of someone elses pain and possibly death. Saying he might be aware he is wrong is inconsequential. If someone stabbed your whole family to death, and then said "Gee, I guess maybe I shouldn't have done that" going to stop you from hating him? And for the record, I never shouted.

And you as an American have never derived pleasure at the thought of killing Saddam and his cronies? Seeing your troops roll through Iraq and beating the crap out Iraqi forces doesn't stir some sense of gratification inside of you? Those are people too, many of whom are just following orders or risk execution. Do you feel bad about the fact that they are losing their lives as well, or are you cheering "Go team", with every battle that American forces take Iraqi lives?

	26-03-2003 04:53									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Instead of just saying you got evidence, you might want to show that evidence... It's like saying like Iraq has WMD, which may be true, but I want proof before I am convinced, I'm sorry but that's just logical I think.

Which is why I referenced the BBC. Go to BBC.com and look for the speech Tony Blair gave before they voted to go to war.

As far as proof of Iraqs WMD - that same speech by Tony Blair. You can also come visit the graves of my two cousins and a neighbor of mine who died extremely rare forms of cancer while in their early 20's - all within 4 years after Desert Storm.

Iraq also said they have no long range missiles. How many have they fired into Kuwait so far? 18 or so? I am not sure but any number greater than 0 is proof of a lie. Saddam has said numerous times over the past twelve years that they have no WMD type materials, and numerous times over the past twelve years he has been proven a liar.

I am convinced.

	26-03-2003 04:56									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Willem And you as an American have never derived pleasure at the thought of killing Saddam and his cronies? Seeing your troops roll through Iraq and beating the crap out Iraqi forces doesn't stir some sense of gratification inside of you? Those are people too, many of whom are just following orders or risk execution. Do you feel bad about the fact that they are losing their lives as well, or are you cheering "Go team", with every battle that American forces take Iraqi lives?

Of course not. Why would anybody enjoy seeing real people being killed?

	26-03-2003 04:56									#54
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Saddam would rip Bush to shreds.

	26-03-2003 05:00									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Willem And you as an American have never derived pleasure at the thought of killing Saddam and his cronies? Seeing your troops roll through Iraq and beating the crap out Iraqi forces doesn't stir some sense of gratification inside of you? Those are people too, many of whom are just following orders or risk execution. Do you feel bad about the fact that they are losing their lives as well, or are you cheering "Go team", with every battle that American forces take Iraqi lives?

Honestly, I feel disgust, dismay, and once we have Saddam there will be some sense of satisfaction, yes. War is a horrible thing, and I feel that the taking of another life can only be justified when the person in question is a serious threat to others. Saddam is a serious threat. He needs to be dead. Same goes for other members of his cabinet who support him.

The best solution would be if we could simply asassinate him and his supportive cronies. This would save the lives of all the innocents who live in Iraq as well as our people. Unfortunately Jimmy Carter signed away that possibility when he was president.

The US forces are taking good care of the innocent Iraqis - not slaughtering them as Saddam would if the tables were turned. Some US forces have already been killed and injured for this, and still some Iraqis decieve.

War is an absolute last resort. Most people would agree to that. What everyone is arguing about is whether or not we have reached that point.

	26-03-2003 05:08									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin Which is why I referenced the BBC. Go to BBC.com and look for the speech Tony Blair gave before they voted to go to war. As far as proof of Iraqs WMD - that same speech by Tony Blair. You can also come visit the graves of my two cousins and a neighbor of mine who died extremely rare forms of cancer while in their early 20's - all within 4 years after Desert Storm. Iraq also said they have no long range missiles. How many have they fired into Kuwait so far? 18 or so? I am not sure but any number greater than 0 is proof of a lie. Saddam has said numerous times over the past twelve years that they have no WMD type materials, and numerous times over the past twelve years he has been proven a liar. I am convinced.

LOL, have you got any brains up there? or are you one of those 87% Of Americans that can't point Iraq on a map.... Just pointing out that Iraq borders with Kuwait and that it doesn't need long distance rockets to hit Kuwait at all... What is true though is that they had a few missiles that reached farther than was officially allowed, but only with an extra 50 kilometers etc, these missiles couldn't get to Israel anyway.. who gives a damn about that.

Btw I know about Tony Blairs speech, and it didn't give me any evidence about WMD in Iraq. Further, being a proven liar doesn't mean you lie about everything right? I think he realizes that if WMDs were actually found, that he would be in big trouble as he didn't report those. Another thing, Saddam may have used chemical weapons in the first Gulf war, but so did the US. And btw the Us bombs have done more damage than chemical weapons from the IRaqis ever did.

For me it's not whether they used chemical weapons, a simple fragmentation bomb can cause just as much if not much much more damage to people.

	26-03-2003 05:11									#57
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quote: The best solution would be if we could simply asassinate him and his supportive cronies. This would save the lives of all the innocents who live in Iraq as well as our people. Unfortunately Jimmy Carter signed away that possibility when he was president.

Assassinating Saddam wouldn't solve everything, the Baath party would probably have several other Saddam-ish guys that could replace saddam. Though that's not sure, the Regime is not as strong as it used to be, I don't think it would have held out that much longer if there hadn't been a war.

	26-03-2003 05:19									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus LOL, have you got any brains up there? or are you one of those 87% Of Americans that can't point Iraq on a map.... Just pointing out that Iraq borders with Kuwait and that it doesn't need long distance rockets to hit Kuwait at all...

I see you are as mature as you are intelligent. I don't know where you got that figure but is pile of crap at best. The missiles in question traveled well past the allowed distance into Kuwait. If you are going rebutt my posts and accuse me of not doing my research, I suggest you do yours.

quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Btw I know about Tony Blairs speech, and it didn't give me any evidence about WMD in Iraq. Further, being a proven liar doesn't mean you lie about everything right? I think he realizes that if WMDs were actually found, that he would be in big trouble as he didn't report those. Another thing, Saddam may have used chemical weapons in the first Gulf war, but so did the US.

While being a proven liar doesn't necesarily mean you will lie about everything, when Saddam has told NOTHING BUT lies for 12 years about his WMDs, any person whose brain possesses the logic of at least a 6 year old would begin to assume that perhaps what he says should no longer be trusted.

BTW, please tell me what proof you have of the US using chemical weapons in Desert Storm?

	26-03-2003 05:20									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Assassinating Saddam wouldn't solve everything, the Baath party would probably have several other Saddam-ish guys that could replace saddam. Though that's not sure, the Regime is not as strong as it used to be, I don't think it would have held out that much longer if there hadn't been a war.

There will always be problems. This solution is simply the most efficient. Solve the greater portion of the problem with the fewest casualties on both sides. Why it is illegal I do not know.

	26-03-2003 05:27									#60
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Trajanus, maybe it's not too late, but read about the returning members before you sign on the dotted line.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast....human.shields/

If you insist on going though, feel free.

http://www.anglingforums.co.uk/torben/



See you, buddy.