26-03-2003 08:10									#91
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"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"


-A. Solzhenitsyn

	26-03-2003 08:49									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus while at the same time I know pussies that just HAD to be good aligned for some reason...

Because you can buy equipment much, much cheaper. I'm playing the first one now.

	26-03-2003 09:03									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin What if he fired a Nuclear SCUD, it misfired as they tend to do, and landed somewhere in Belgium?

Get real! First of all, SCUDS only have a range I think of 400 miles, there's no way it could ever strike Belgium. Secondly, he doesn't have a nuclear program anymore, that's been clearly stated by the inspectors. As well, we have here in Canada one of the scientists that used to work on the program; he fled here because he no longer wanted to live in Iraq under Hussein. He's been quite vocal about saying that the nuclear program there has been scrapped.

	26-03-2003 09:38									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus No I will never find this war justified. If he had possessed WMD America wouldn't have attacked Iraq. After all that's what I hear even from rightwing conservatives here, that attacking NK would be nasty as they could nuke SK or Japan. You still remember that you are trying to "prevent" him from finishing WMD?

NK presents major problems. First, we need China's consent. The reason is obvious. Second, we need both Japan's and NK's consent. When they are both facing being nuked by a pissed of 50-year-old adolescent with a bad hairdo, they think twice.

What we are trying to do with Iraq is to eliminate the problem of Saddam before we cannot do anything about him because he has nukes.

Put your thinking cap on. I am sure you see the differences between Iraq and NK.

	26-03-2003 09:51									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin Which is why I referenced the BBC. Go to BBC.com and look for the speech Tony Blair gave before they voted to go to war.

Tony's dossier on Iraq has been shown to be mostly copied from a decade old report by a postgrad student.

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin As far as proof of Iraqs WMD - that same speech by Tony Blair. You can also come visit the graves of my two cousins and a neighbor of mine who died extremely rare forms of cancer while in their early 20's - all within 4 years after Desert Storm.

How does this constitute evidence?

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin Iraq also said they have no long range missiles. How many have they fired into Kuwait so far? 18 or so? I am not sure but any number greater than 0 is proof of a lie. Saddam has said numerous times over the past twelve years that they have no WMD type materials, and numerous times over the past twelve years he has been proven a liar.

You should read a Middle East map some time, and figure out what the heck "long range missiles" entail.

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin I am convinced.

That is a personal problem.

	26-03-2003 10:09									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Willem Get real! First of all, SCUDS only have a range I think of 400 miles, there's no way it could ever strike Belgium.

I was proposing a hypothetical situation to prove a point.

	26-03-2003 10:17									#97
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Tony's dossier on Iraq has been shown to be mostly copied from a decade old report by a postgrad student.

First of all, show me the proof. Secondly, if it contains facts, who cares?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger How does this constitute evidence?

If you don't accept that as proof of his use chemical weapons, how do you explain his use of poison gas to kill hundreds of Kurds in 1988?

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You should read a Middle East map some time, and figure out what the heck "long range missiles" entail.

And you should read the UN sanctions against Iraq from 12 years ago that explicitly detail that Iraq is not to have any missiles with a range of (about) 96 miles. Then look at the reports missiles hitting encampments about 150 miles inside Kuwait. I had already explained this, if you would have read my later posts or God forbid actually researched the facts before posting you would have known this.

	26-03-2003 14:04									#98
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Oops!

That's a lot of replies!

Cannot write a reply to each single post, so here's a collective one:

To all the people who said I'm not a sick mothaf***a:
Thank you. There were a lot of posts which helped me to get a clearer view on my emotions.

To all the people who said I actually am the fragging ba$tard I was fearing to become:
Thank you, too. But meanwhile I believe you are wrong. (And I don't masturbate watching war movies. For that purpose I prefer another genre).

I've been thinking about my emotional problems and came to the conclusion that my pleasure in watching the american POWs and dead mainly came from the hope that the US people might start questioning the war when they see their own soldiers suffer and die. And of course the bully-who-get's-a-bloody-nose-thing is another reason to feel the way I do.
I am not absolutely sure, if this conclusion is true, but I hope so and feel better believing that it is.

To all the Americans in this forum: I'm starting to differentiate my feelings toward the american people and their government, but watching Americans on TV, who say that they axiomatically don't question any decisions made by their president keeps disgusting me.
I didn't meet many Americans in my life. The ones I talked to were very nice and intelligent persons. But in general we Germans (me, too) have the prejudice that most Americans are very stupid and naive. On the other hand I myself have the same prejudice about the 'typical' German, too (and contemporaneously hope that I am not a typical German).

Conclusion: The world sucks! Hope this war comes to an end soon. Maybe then the world sucks a little bit less.

Edit: Replaced s**k by suck

Last edited by Der PH on 26-03-2003 at 15:07

	26-03-2003 14:49									#99
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sucks is not censored.

	26-03-2003 15:09									#100
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel sucks is not censored.

Thanx a lot!

I'm not familiar with f**king American political correctness.

	26-03-2003 16:27									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin First of all, show me the proof. Secondly, if it contains facts, who cares?

It was all over the news.

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin If you don't accept that as proof of his use chemical weapons, how do you explain his use of poison gas to kill hundreds of Kurds in 1988?

How are the two related?

quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin And you should read the UN sanctions against Iraq from 12 years ago that explicitly detail that Iraq is not to have any missiles with a range of (about) 96 miles. Then look at the reports missiles hitting encampments about 150 miles inside Kuwait. I had already explained this, if you would have read my later posts or God forbid actually researched the facts before posting you would have known this.

No, I have definitely not seen any news about those missiles. Cite?

	26-03-2003 18:13									#102
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Der PH, In a way we are naive because we still believe that we cannot lose a war. We seem not to have learned the real lesson of Vietnam.

As to the German people, to some extent it is good that they are today pacifist. An aggressive Germany would cause a lot of unease in Europe in the same way the US is now causing unease in the world.

	26-03-2003 18:42									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ned We seem not to have learned the real lesson of Vietnam.

Maybe a lost war half way around the globe is not enough of a lesson. Having your country completely destroyed seems to be more effective, at least it has been for Germany.
Of course the people of the destroyed and occupied country have to get convinced not to hate the war's winners. Regarding this the Americans obviously did a good job after WW2. Hope they manage this again in Iraq. But having a look at Bush, Rumsi and their companions I have some doubts.

quote: Originally posted by Ned As to the German people, to some extent it is good that they are today pacifist. An aggressive Germany would cause a lot of unease in Europe in the same way the US is now causing unease in the world.

I prefer to live in a whining pacifist Germany to Adolf's 3rd Reich. I often ask myself if I would have been a Nazi, too, if I were born 50 or 60 years earlier. I hope, I'll never know!

	26-03-2003 19:05									#104
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?" -A. Solzhenitsyn

One of my favorite quotes from Solzhenitsyn. Too bad so few of us take it to heart. We look at evil Germany during the Nazi erra or evil America when we drove out the Indians or evil Japan when they invaded China etc. etc. but the honest person would search his own heart. We are all subject to evil passions. The discussions here at Apolyton are often excersizes in hypocrisy, and anti-Americanism is often just an attempt to escape personal or national guilt.

	26-03-2003 19:09									#105
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While I agree with Lincoln, I must strike back saying that anti-europe feelings are running high, even before talks about forming coalitions. I condemn that as much as I condemn anti-americanism, and any anti that ends with nationality or race.

	26-03-2003 19:12									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH But in general we Germans (me, too) have the prejudice that most Americans are very stupid and naive. On the other hand I myself have the same prejudice about the 'typical' German, too (and contemporaneously hope that I am not a typical German).

You can´t speak for the entire German people, certainly you don´t speak for me.

The point is: prejudices about other people being generally stupid are stupid as well, so I try to avoid such patterns of thinking....

	26-03-2003 19:21									#107
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Yeah, but those are stereotypes.. doesn't make it so.
What I like about Americans is that they are friendly to strangers, like to talk with strangers many times and smile to you. Here they are honest and if you see one smile in day at city.. well they must be drunk. So it's refreshing. You know when I go to any supermarket or what ever and ask for something its always 'what you want' 'that' *silence* 'nks' (as if someone would say thank you.. it's just quick nks avoiding eye contact at all times). Better have that superficial thing than honest rude 'service'.

	26-03-2003 19:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro You can´t speak for the entire German people, certainly you don´t speak for me.

O.K.!
Probably it's just another prejudice of mine to think that the Germans have this prejudice about the Americans. (This prejudices start getting complicated).

	26-03-2003 19:25									#109
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Prejudice people in general have prejudices against other people .

	26-03-2003 20:05									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Der PH Probably it's just another prejudice of mine to think that the Germans have this prejudice about the Americans. (This prejudices start getting complicated).

Well, to keep it simple: I think we all have prejudices here and there. But that doesn´t mean we should surrender to them. If you start to question your prejudices the results may (although probably not always) positively surprise you....

Ok, enough with Bebro´s little advice for everything...

	26-03-2003 20:49									#111
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quote: Originally posted by Amesjustin First of all, show me the proof. Secondly, if it contains facts, who cares?

Dig around some of the older news articles, it was in most of them, and you'll find a number of comparisons of the two documents that clearly show that the report had been plagiarized. CBC here in their report on the matter showed several passages of the two, and it was quite clear.

And the paper written by the grad student was produced about ten years ago. It certainly can't be reliable in terms of the situation at the time of Blair's report. It may have been fact then, but there's no guarentee that it still was fact ten years later.

quote: If you don't accept that as proof of his use chemical weapons, how do you explain his use of poison gas to kill hundreds of Kurds in 1988?

That only proves that he had them in 1988, not that he has them now. And I've been reading that some people question whether it was Iraq or Iran that gassed those people. The two countries were at war, and both were using gas.

	26-03-2003 21:08									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Willem And I've been reading that some people question whether it was Iraq or Iran that gassed those people.

It's pretty much beyon all doubt that it was Iraq. We even had a debate a while back that settled the issue.

	26-03-2003 21:08									#113
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Whine and moan sesson still going?

	26-03-2003 21:20									#114
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Whine and moan sesson still going?

No, that's in the "plucky underdog" thread.

	26-03-2003 21:29									#115
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Thanks, Doc. At least they're contained.

	26-03-2003 22:45									#116
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's pretty much beyon all doubt that it was Iraq. We even had a debate a while back that settled the issue.

Well I don't really doubt it myself, but I'd also like to see more proof before I make any firm accusations either way.

	27-03-2003 01:05									#117
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I'm not 100% sure of this either.. I tend to lean on the Saddam doing gassing, but I'm not 100% sure. Then again I don't think it matters, we need to go after Iran after this war, so it's all the same.

	27-03-2003 08:30									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I'm not 100% sure of this either.. I tend to lean on the Saddam doing gassing, but I'm not 100% sure. Then again I don't think it matters, we need to go after Iran after this war, so it's all the same.

Not the Finns...!

	27-03-2003 15:28									#119
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I was unaware that Iraq or the USA used chem weapons during the Gulf War. Aside from depleted uranium used in some of our shells and which may cause health problems, I understood that the contamination of people in the area, including allied troops, came from the demolition of weapons bunkers containing chemicals. No scud or artillery shell fired by Iraq contained anything but explosives.

	27-03-2003 18:15									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman Its all POV, i suppose, but i guess you dont consider Saddam Hussein a bully?

Of course I do. But on the scale of things, he's a much smaller and less dangerous bully than the US. I can count on no fingers the amount of democracies Hussein has overthrown. The US has overthrown dozens, some in my own lifetime. It's trying to destabilize a few even now.