26-03-2003 06:17									#1
	Basra: The City So Nice They Took It Twice Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't understand... Originally, the military claimed they had taken Basra. We found out that it was not true that they were just closing in on the city. I heard again a few days ago that they had secured the city but there was pockets of resistance...

Now there's a report that the British outside the city have reported an uprising within the city against the Iraqi troops... Have we taken this city or not?!

	26-03-2003 06:21									#2
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well I've just heard that the tiny port of Umm Qassar, "taked" five days ago is still under iraqi control, so maybe the capture of Basra will be a little harder.

	26-03-2003 06:22									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I like the title.

	26-03-2003 06:23									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm still waiting for Iran to take Basra back - then thing will get interesting.

	26-03-2003 06:25									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't recall initial reports that they'd taken Basra, although Umm Qasr led to some confusion, because of their being two separate port facilities (the old port and the new port), and almost two separate towns. It was reported that the USMC took one, the Brits the other, then things hit the fan for a bit.

AFAIK, Basra had always been reported as being bypassed, and what we took was the Faw peninsula.

	26-03-2003 06:39									#6
	Got spare money?

No, they definitely said within the first twenty-four hours that Basra had been taken. They later retracted that though.

I knew about Umm Qasr being taken, or supposedly taken I should say, because I watched the footage of the U.S. tanks attacking the resistance forces.

But there was definitely a second report of Basra being taken because I remember how they were saying that the first report was premature. Now, I didn't read that, I heard that from one of the journalists in the field on CNN, so that might have just been bogus the second time. But there was definitely a first report that lingered for a little while.

	26-03-2003 07:58									#7
	Support Apolyton

They have declared Basra to be a military target. Man, I was confused. If it hadn't been one, why did they kept attacking it? With cluster bombs no less.

	26-03-2003 08:28									#8
	Put an end to popups!

Even Umm Qasr is said by the people receiving food aid to have Saddam's men still scattered around the city.

MtG: I remember them saying that they at least had "control" over Basra. Which, in a sense, I guess they do.

	26-03-2003 09:51									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by DanS MtG: I remember them saying that they at least had "control" over Basra. Which, in a sense, I guess they do.

Control over what goes in and what comes out is all they really need.
Incidentally, cnn and a few other networks are reporting a possible uprising in Basra at present. Apparently the Brits have engaged some of the Iraqi soldiers trying to surpress the revolters.

	26-03-2003 09:54									#10
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They have declared Basra to be a military target. Man, I was confused. If it hadn't been one, why did they kept attacking it? With cluster bombs no less.

I'm confused too -- where do you get this stuff?

The media here have been reporting cluster bombs are not being used, because many times the clusters do not detonate on impact and become very dangerous for coalition troops. Not to mention the fact that cluster bombs are anything but precise, and Basra is a city...

And I forgot to mention that the fighting was reported near the city of Basra before. They avoided going into the actual city until it could not be avoided any more, and then designated it a military target and entered the actual city.

	26-03-2003 09:57									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I definitely heard it reported on CNN that coalition forces had taken Basra and Um Qasr. Perhaps they were just overconfident.

	26-03-2003 10:00									#12
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Agathon I definitely heard it reported on CNN that coalition forces had taken Basra and Um Qasr. Perhaps they were just overconfident.

Did they say this at the Centcom briefing or did the embedded reporters say it?

	26-03-2003 10:02									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Asher I'm confused too -- where do you get this stuff?

Qatar's al-Jazeera, also local TV newsfeeds.

	26-03-2003 10:05									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Qatar's al-Jazeera, also local TV newsfeeds.

Okay, that explains why it doesn't make a bit of sense.

	26-03-2003 10:10									#15
	Increase Your PM Length

I guess you just can't handle a contrary view to your own comfortable, conservative fantasy gagaland. So may it be.

Event x008 on the Iraqi body count website

	26-03-2003 10:14									#16
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I guess you just can't handle a contrary view to your own comfortable, conservative fantasy gagaland. So may it be.

No, I just find it odd because it doesn't make any sense.

Why would they use cluster bombs on a city? Not only are they inaccurate, they are very dangerous to anyone who goes into the area after (coalition troops, civilians) and aren't very effective in an urban environment to begin with.

And people are getting confused with the terminology. Some reporters may say the forces have captured a city, but until Centcom says it, it doesn't mean the US forces say they captured the city...

The cluster bombs stuff is clearly bunk as far as I'm concerned ("they're dropping cluster bombs on the civilians, oh the humanity!", etc), and the "take the city" stuff is misunderstandings.

	26-03-2003 10:14									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I guess you just can't handle a contrary view to your own comfortable, conservative fantasy gagaland. So may it be. Event x008 on the Iraqi body count website

Yes, I have seen that -- and the only sources they cite are suspect.

I searched Reuters and nothing came up about cluster bombs in Basra, for example.

	26-03-2003 10:15									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Chilean tv correspondants, spanish newspapers and even France2 tv is saying that 'some' cluster bombs were used on Mosul, Basora and other regions of Iraq.
Perhaps is not the most common bomb used during the war, but the coalition use them anyway.

	26-03-2003 10:16									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Washington Post is suspect? Whatever you say.

	26-03-2003 10:16									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger They have declared Basra to be a military target. Man, I was confused. If it hadn't been one, why did they kept attacking it? With cluster bombs no less.

The CBU's weren't going after the city itself, but AAA and arty pieces in the city. Declaring the city a military target is sort of like declaring the opening day of duck season. There's a difference.

	26-03-2003 10:18									#21
	Got spare money?

Well then maybe use them near the cities and I got that wrong. My bad

	26-03-2003 10:19									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Chilean President Chilean tv correspondants, spanish newspapers and even France2 tv is saying that 'some' cluster bombs were used on Mosul, Basora and other regions of Iraq. Perhaps is not the most common bomb used during the war, but the coalition use them anyway.

Hell yeah, we use them against specific types of targets, primarily SAM/AAA and arty. There are many different submunition types available, from non-lethal (flechettes) to anti-vehicular mines to self-forging anti-armor munitions.

	26-03-2003 10:19									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Washington Post is suspect? Whatever you say.

Feel free to link to the WP story.

If it's anything like the Reuters story, the phrase about cluster bombs probably starts with "Iraq says"

	26-03-2003 10:22									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Coalition use and have used Cluster Bomb, some "millitary" objective been destroyed by cluster bomb...

I dont have proof.... but if you look all the links I've submitted to the thread "Latest News:Part 1 and 2" you will find proof.

	26-03-2003 10:24									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by cronos_qc Coalition use and have used Cluster Bomb, some "millitary" objective been destroyed by cluster bomb...

I very highly doubt they'd use it in a city the size of Basra.

No one has been able to provide a link. WP's website turns up 5 stories when searching for "cluster bombs", all 5 of which were returned because the story mentioned "cluster of homes", not cluster bombs.

For Reuters, all the "cluster bombs" quotes were prefaced with "Iraq says..."

	26-03-2003 10:26									#26
	Support Apolyton

I thought flechettes were either little bits of shrapnel, or dart like objects. If they're non-lethal, that can't be the case. What are they?

Also, UR, 200-300 civilians dead after hundreds of bombs have been dropped is demonstrative of the professionalism and restraint of American and British forces. I'm willing to bet that if the Chinese were involved in an invasion they would exhibit cruelty consistent with their Nationalist-Socialist ethos.

	26-03-2003 13:57									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Asher No, I just find it odd because it doesn't make any sense. Why would they use cluster bombs on a city? Not only are they inaccurate, they are very dangerous to anyone who goes into the area after (coalition troops, civilians) and aren't very effective in an urban environment to begin with. And people are getting confused with the terminology. Some reporters may say the forces have captured a city, but until Centcom says it, it doesn't mean the US forces say they captured the city... The cluster bombs stuff is clearly bunk as far as I'm concerned ("they're dropping cluster bombs on the civilians, oh the humanity!", etc), and the "take the city" stuff is misunderstandings.

well tell it to the USAF. they used cluster bombs in yugoslavia, in nis they killed people in the street near the green market. i am sure you recall the incident

	26-03-2003 13:58									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Felch X I thought flechettes were either little bits of shrapnel, or dart like objects. If they're non-lethal, that can't be the case. What are they? Also, UR, 200-300 civilians dead after hundreds of bombs have been dropped is demonstrative of the professionalism and restraint of American and British forces. I'm willing to bet that if the Chinese were involved in an invasion they would exhibit cruelty consistent with their Nationalist-Socialist ethos.

how convenient then that the chinese have not waged any wars of agression as of lately. au contraire

	26-03-2003 14:26									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: how convenient then that the chinese have not waged any wars of agression as of lately.

Why would they need to? They already have plenty of people to oppress within their own borders...