26-03-2003 09:40									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Rothy Boris, i have found you to be a very decent person here (hence my vote for yous some time back in that hall of fame milarky) but you are too sensative in regards to 'slurs' as you call them. Not long back you took offense to being called Queer, when most homosexual's consider this normal. It's understandable that you're sensative about this issue tho, just wish you were you more chilled about it. Cheers Matt

You don't seem to note the context under which a poster called me a "queer," as it was clearly done in a context of derision. Most homosexuals, btw, would certainly bristle at a heterosexual referring to them as queers, especially in the U.S. and Canada. Perhaps that is different in the U.K., I don't know.

But while the contexts of "queer" is debatable, I respectfully proffer that shirt lifter, fudge packer, uphill gardener, and poo pusher are a world apart in terms of offensiveness. Considering the imagery that is conjured up in most gays' minds when such slurs are used (don't suppose being strapped to a fence and beaten to death with a pistol is fun), I don't understand why people express surprise that gays bristle at their use, especially from sources wherein the intent is unknown. It's rather like walking up to a black stranger and calling him a nigger and being stunned when he is outraged.

	26-03-2003 09:50									#32
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Respect is something you earn, not something you give, and it doesn't have to be mutual. I can respect lots of people who may not respect me because they don't know me or perhaps because I haven't earned it. I think you are confusing respect, with respecting the rights of others which of course should be mutual.

So far MrFun, you haven't earned my respect because your posts sound a bit whiny and childish. Shouting RESPECT ME, RESPECT ME, is a sure way not to get it.

For me, I disagree as well with the military policy on gays, however, I have to respect people who have the discipline to perform under the intense pressure of combat. Regardless of what faults a person has, I will always honor the respect that is earned by the veterans who fought for our county. Sure there are plenty of vets who are racist, homophobic idiots, but I have to give them their due for at least one honorable deed.

	26-03-2003 10:02									#33
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Are you sure, it's not the other way around ? you give respect, get respect back.

Well said alva.

Boris, no one should call you names you don't want. If anyone picks on Boris' exceptional ability to service presidential members, they will have to answer to me. 'K?

	26-03-2003 10:14									#34
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by alva Are you sure, it's not the other way around ? you give respect, get respect back.

There are homosexuals who have respect for the military institution, by choosing to serve in a department, and establish a career.

Yet, if they were to express themselves as homosexuals the same way as heterosexuals express themselves, the military would not give back the same respect.

	26-03-2003 10:37									#35
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You don't seem to note the context under which a poster called me a "queer," as it was clearly done in a context of derision. Most homosexuals, btw, would certainly bristle at a heterosexual referring to them as queers, especially in the U.S. and Canada. Perhaps that is different in the U.K., I don't know. But while the contexts of "queer" is debatable, I respectfully proffer that shirt lifter, fudge packer, uphill gardener, and poo pusher are a world apart in terms of offensiveness. Considering the imagery that is conjured up in most gays' minds when such slurs are used (don't suppose being strapped to a fence and beaten to death with a pistol is fun), I don't understand why people express surprise that gays bristle at their use, especially from sources wherein the intent is unknown. It's rather like walking up to a black stranger and calling him a nigger and being stunned when he is outraged.

But Boris, this means that you and I are PC fanatics, not reasonable people.

	26-03-2003 10:57									#36
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: But Boris, this means that you and I are PC fanatics, not reasonable people.

lol how true
i'm joking but anyways

the biggest problem i see with allowing homosexuals in the military without DADT, is the discomfort the other soldiers would feel, especially with situations like showers, changing clothes, etc.

they probably shouldn't feel that discomfort, and they certainly shouldn't let the discomfort they feel grow into violence or feelings like that, yet it would difficult to change the average recruit's perception, and maybe more trouble than to revoke DADT

if it was a perfect world i don't think we'd need DADT (much less a military) but it's not, so i don't know what a good solution is

	26-03-2003 11:27									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

gay people are so gay.

there I said it.

I have been meaning to get that off my chest for sometime.

	26-03-2003 13:21									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Serving in the military isn't an inherent natural right. The military exists to provide for the defense of our country, not to provide for equal opportunity. The decision on whether or not to admit gays into the military should be made by the military based on military issues, not based on whether we want to the military to be some morally pure institution as some conservative protestants might want, or whether we want the military to be the next frontier for equality and opportunity as some of the GLAAD crowd might want.

	26-03-2003 14:02									#39
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Rothy While Equality for all is great, there are times you have to draw the line, and with the Army this is one of them. Many people in the Army are not intelligent (many are of course, but probably more are not) hence them joining the Army. They cannot appreciate that shoe shiners are normal (some struggle to grasp the concept of equality at all) , and trying to impose this on them will not help. Shirt lifter's cannot really be compared with blacks either. One's ethic origin is a genetic specification, but it's one's own choice whether they want to pack fudge or not. Most people have by now understood that Race is something we're born with, it makes not a jot of difference to most things, and one doesnt have to explain thier colour. Many people however, still do not understand why one actually chooses to be an Uphill gardener, and hence there are going to be morale problems with both the Hetro's and the poo pushers.

	26-03-2003 14:13									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Mr Fun,

Your argument sounds a little childish at this juncture. Surely it is better to leave such discussions when there is war ongoing (bearing in mind the average soldier does not make policy and they are the ones making the sacrifices).

I have to say that such opportunistic whining will only serve to undermine your position and argument.

Sorry but thats how I see it.

	26-03-2003 15:38									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MrFun It's really simple -- you demand respect, give respect in return.

Following your rationale: You are demanding respect from homophobic soldiers, so you must give respect in return.

I agree with the sentence I quoted from you above, but I don't think you're practising what you're preaching.

	26-03-2003 16:55									#42
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Dissident gay people are so gay. there I said it. I have been meaning to get that off my chest for sometime.

Just lift your shirt and let it out.

	27-03-2003 03:18									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet Following your rationale: You are demanding respect from homophobic soldiers, so you must give respect in return. I agree with the sentence I quoted from you above, but I don't think you're practising what you're preaching.

I'm saying that right now, American veterans demand that we respect all military officers and soldiers.

While I can respect military officers and soldiers who are not homophobic bigots, I cannot respect those who are. Those who are not homophobic, but demand our repsect are not being hypocritical.

	27-03-2003 03:34									#44
	Full PM-box? Change here!

MrFun... your first sentence presented an excellent topic, but I don't understand how this is a "gay" issue? I think the "gay" issue with the military is different from the "protesting vs respect" issue, but somehow you mashed them together.

my 2 cents about respect for the military
As an American, you should have respect for the Armed Forces as an institution. That doesn't mean you have to like their internal policies. But respect them for their desire to fight to the death for your freedom. You should show respect for the individual veterans that fought and died for such freedom. You don't have to respect their political or moral beliefs pertaining to homosexuality or any other issue. You should show them respect. But this is America... you don't have to if you don't want to. I just hope that as Americans, people can differentiate between our valiant combat veterans and some bigots that happen to be in the military.

	27-03-2003 03:48									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Sava MrFun... your first sentence presented an excellent topic, but I don't understand how this is a "gay" issue? I think the "gay" issue with the military is different from the "protesting vs respect" issue, but somehow you mashed them together. my 2 cents about respect for the military As an American, you should have respect for the Armed Forces as an institution. That doesn't mean you have to like their internal policies. But respect them for their desire to fight to the death for your freedom. You should show respect for the individual veterans that fought and died for such freedom. You don't have to respect their political or moral beliefs pertaining to homosexuality or any other issue. You should show them respect. But this is America... you don't have to if you don't want to. I just hope that as Americans, people can differentiate between our valiant combat veterans and some bigots that happen to be in the military.

I'm not sure why this happens so often on Apolyton in debates, but it seems people always reiterate back to points that they already agree upon.

Yes, we need to differentiate between the bigots and those who are not. How can bigots claim to fight for freedom, is beyond me.

	27-03-2003 03:58									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Well sorry, I came into this kind of late.

	27-03-2003 05:33									#47
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Too many times, when certain Gay posters have an opinion, everything spins back to Gay pride, and the injustice of it all.
Because of some Gays, other Gays get snapped at.
Not just by me, and not just here.

But look at RJ, even Boris , and starchild.
Well, not starchild maybe. But yeah, starchild too.
They have opinions that they express that have nothing to do with their sexual preference.

The same can't be said for all.

I'd feel the same if everything, I don't know, Chris (for example) said, had to do with banging his old lady.
Who cares?

And actually, being Gay is certainly not an assurance of being open-minded , norconclusive to the fact of not being a bigot.

	27-03-2003 05:54									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: the biggest problem i see with allowing homosexuals in the military without DADT, is the discomfort the other soldiers would feel, especially with situations like showers, changing clothes, etc.

Also women should shower with men in the army. Right?
Edit: not directed at you personally allthought qouted from you.

	27-03-2003 06:03									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm for Gays in the military. In a separate division.
Women are generally separated from the men, and if you have a 3rd Interest, a 3rd group would be required.

Being Gay certainly has nothing to do with Patriotic feelings.
Which is the true point of my other post.

	27-03-2003 08:39									#50
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I agree with MrFun here.

To fire someone based on their sexual orientation only serves to show the intellectual, emotional, and spiritual development of some of those whom are in command of our military.

	27-03-2003 09:46									#51
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand I'm for Gays in the military. In a separate division. Women are generally separated from the men, and if you have a 3rd Interest, a 3rd group would be required.

I concur. However, this won't happen. The military would be concerned that members of the gay division would, well, y'know. That's sodomy, and the UCMJ sets the maximum punishment for sodomy as

quote: Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 5 years.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library...o/mcm/bl125.htm

The military is pretty puritanical. The max punishment for adultery is

quote: Dishonorable discharge, forfeiture of all pay and allowances, and confinement for 1 year.

http://usmilitary.about.com/library...mcm/bl134-2.htm

	27-03-2003 14:51									#52
	Get a bigger avatar today!

That seems like a peculiar double-standard.

So if a married guy has consensual sex with another guy while on active duty he's confined for 5 years.

But if a married guy has consensual sex with a women (who isn't his wife) while on active duty he's confined for only 1 year.

That seems like clear case of discrimination to me.

Last edited by FrustratedPoet on 27-03-2003 at 19:49

	27-03-2003 19:46									#53
	Remove this text

No, just stopping disgusting behaviour.

MrFun. Can you talk about anything else? Probably not.

	27-03-2003 19:59									#54
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by FrustratedPoet So if a married guy has consensual sex with another guy while on active duty he's confined for 5 years.

Sodomy covers oral and anal sex, regardless of the gender of the participants. So getting a BJ from a woman is also punishable by up to 5 years...

	30-03-2003 08:22									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Boddington's No, just stopping disgusting behaviour. MrFun. Can you talk about anything else? Probably not.

For some reason, when I have gone for something like four months or more without creating two new threads on gay issues, people act like I have been discussing nothing but in the past.

You have a memory problem, I think -- but if this thread does not interest you, you can just not participate.

	30-03-2003 09:37									#56
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Mr. Fun, I don't think that gays should even be in the military.

	30-03-2003 10:25									#57
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by nationalist Mr. Fun, I don't think that gays should even be in the military.

because . . . ?

	30-03-2003 10:37									#58
	Inflate your Upload Space

How do you classify them? Where do you put them? You can't station them with heterosexual men. Believe it or not, many heteros don't view homosexuality as good and equal to heterosexuality. They don't understand it that they are sharing a foxhole with someone that may want to be more than comrades. Gay military relationships would lead to many altercations to say the least. Many people view homosexuality as disgraceful and immoral. Gays are stereotyped as leftist and effiminate, with lispy voices and died hair. Not exactly the prototype soldier. Besides, how many gays are even interested in joining the military?

	30-03-2003 10:51									#59
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker MrGay, So you are going to disrespect those grunts out there risking their lives because of a POLICY.

I'd have to agree with this statement. If you have a problem with a government policy then please write your Congressman but don't take it out on a poor grunt who's just trying to do his duty.

	30-03-2003 11:05									#60
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yeah, that was Boris' position too. I'd think members of a minority group would like to see each other as individuals rather than a group that is more easily pointed at as them, but MrNotFun seems to like this us v. them type of post.