26-03-2003 23:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by orange Hurricane - did you read even the main points in each section? You're entitled to your opinion, but declaring that he is a fool if you don't read what he says, I would say, makes you a bigger fool than he is.

Not necessarily. If someone declared that human beings are spawned from oak trees, and wrote a book about it; my declaration that this person is retarded has no bearing on my own level of retardedness.

Perhaps if there weren't millions of substantiated witnesses to the Holocaust, then this guy would have a leg to stand on.

I'm sorry Orange, but this guy is a dumbass.

	27-03-2003 00:16									#32
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Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the Soviet Holocaust? It seems like the only thing that people ever focus on is the Nazi holocaust. While the Nazi holocaust was undeniably evil and inhuman, we forget that somewhere between 25,000,000 and 40,000,000 Soviets died at the hands of the Soviet State during Stalin's reign. Why are there dozens of movies on the Nazi Holocaust and the Jewish ghettos, but so few on the Gulags? To me, forgetting these atrocities does humanity a grave disservice.

	27-03-2003 00:21									#33
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Because there are more communists than Nazis, I would assume.

	27-03-2003 00:23									#34
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That's not a very satisfying/comforting answer. Blatant ideological blindness trumphs the importance of 40,000,000 dead? I though that the left was supposed to be the caring, nurturing side of the political spectrum.

	27-03-2003 00:29									#35
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Think again. They kill millions for their ideology. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin... the list goes on and on.

	27-03-2003 00:31									#36
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Fact is, nationalist, their revisionism takes on two forms:

1. Ignore if you can, decry if you have to, the murders committed by the Left.
2. Then argue that they weren't really Communists, that they were opportunists who latched onto the Communist bandwagon and perverted the doctrine.

	27-03-2003 00:39									#37
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Think again. They kill millions for their ideology. Pol Pot, Mao, Stalin, Lenin... the list goes on and on.

I know that. It is quite a hypocritical worldview they have. Maybe western communists think that the millions of Slavs and Asians who were murdered by the Stalinistic regime were inferior to the Jews of Hitler and don't deserve sympathy.

	27-03-2003 00:52									#38
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Rather, they feel that the greater good of Communism is worth the blood of tens of millions regardless of ethnic type - plenty of Jews were killed in the USSR as well as Slavs.

	27-03-2003 00:57									#39
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Fact is, nationalist, their revisionism takes on two forms: 1. Ignore if you can, decry if you have to, the murders committed by the Left. 2. Then argue that they weren't really Communists, that they were opportunists who latched onto the Communist bandwagon and perverted the doctrine.

a little bit of red herring, but mostly ad hominem

What's worse than revisionist history, is when some categorize people with different political views as being part of a murderous, authoritarian regime.

I really don't like it when people use labels like "the Left" in order to demonize the people they disagree with.

	27-03-2003 00:57									#40
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Rather, they feel that the greater good of Communism is worth the blood of tens of millions regardless of ethnic type - plenty of Jews were killed in the USSR as well as Slavs.

People with beliefs like that have no right to look down on the Nazis. It puts them all in the same class, if not making the bloodthirsty Communists look even worse.

	27-03-2003 00:59									#41
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Did you guys know that in many Eastern European countries, people refer to the Soviets as "Stalinists" and not "Communists". It's amazing that these oppressed people were intelligent enough to see the difference.

	27-03-2003 01:10									#42
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If it was Stalin that was overthrown in 1989, Sava, you'd actually have a point, you know that?

	27-03-2003 01:17									#43
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The political organization of the Soviet government from Stalin's death up until the fall of the Soviet union was extremely dynamic. Thinking the Soviet government of 1985 was the same as 1941 is a mistake. The Soviet Union was a collection of corrupt and sometimes brutal authoritarian regimes that at some point, hijacked an ideology. It's about the same as the "Al-Qaedas" and religious fundamentalists that have hijacked Islam.

So let me ask you, do you blame all of Islam for 9-11? or terrorism in general?

Hopefully your answer is no.

And Stalinism didn't go away when Stalin died. I don't know why you are under that assumption.

	27-03-2003 01:20									#44
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there were relatively few prisoners of conscience in the USSR post-Stalin. they existed, but comparing this to Stalin, or Mao, or Hitler, is silly.

Besides, on the whole, people's lives under the Soviet Union were much better than they are today. I know that first source.

	27-03-2003 01:21									#45
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11,000,000 (only 6 million of whom were Jewish) went in, 60,000 came out. That's less than a 6% survival rate. That pretty well rates as almost no one surviving.

	27-03-2003 01:25									#46
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See what I mean, nationalist?

	27-03-2003 01:25									#47
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I agree Azazel. I also want to point out that during the Cold-War, most of the SU's actions were motivated by the desire to protect its people. And that's relevant today considering an unjust, immoral military action going on right now. Even the Pope said that there was no "bad guy" in the Cold War. And if you want to compare Cold War related military atrocities, the US commited many, many more than the SU.

	27-03-2003 01:28									#48
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Let's clear a few things up. First, a few facts.

Q- Where did the figure of 6 million first come from?

A- That noted Zionist, Heinrich Himmler. As verified by his Adjutant, Karl Wolff, who detailed this in his interview about the "Final Solution" records office run by Himmler in "The World at War".

Q- Wasn't Auschwitz-Birkenau just a concentration camp?

A- Check out the blueprints and ask yourself why it needed such vast and efficient crematoria. It was built to accommodate phenomenal levels of death.

Q- But the stories could still have been made up, right? By the Jews?

A- Well I bet those Nazis are feeling a bit stupid, aren't they? Instead of using the defences "I was only obeying orders" or "I was just a minor bureaucrat, a cog in the machine" (Eichmann), they should have just said "Hang on a minute! None of this actually happened!". I bet they were kicking themselves when they realised they'd forgotten to mention that point.

Himmler, as testified by Wolff, said it happened. Speer said it happened (eventually). Eichmann said it happened. The Auschwitz-Birkenau commandant said it happened. A huge body of first-hand witness evidence says it happened. How much evidence do you need?

	27-03-2003 01:28									#49
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Sava, you've already made my point: there's no need for you to continue. Thanks, though!

	27-03-2003 01:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT See what I mean, nationalist?

Our arguments and points are valid.

quote: 2. Then argue that they weren't really Communists, that they were opportunists who latched onto the Communist bandwagon and perverted the doctrine.

If you know the facts, why do you argue against them?

	27-03-2003 01:29									#51
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Sava, you've already made my point: there's no need for you to continue. Thanks, though!

I'm confused? I didn't realize your point was that you're wrong.

	27-03-2003 01:37									#52
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Yeah, you gotta wonder about all those Nazis confessing to being a part of something that is fictitious...

	27-03-2003 01:38									#53
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I love that "Invisible elephant" argument. Here's my response.

In a football stadium, in front of 100,000 spectators, a man is marched onto the pitch. There, he is shot in the head, and the spectators witness his brains getting sprayed across the pitch. Some of the spectators help burn the corpse.

The gunman admits killing him. The man who ordered the killing admits it. Then, 40 years later, someone who wasn't there says it didn't happen.

Who do you believe?

I call this argument the "blind revisionist gobshite" theory.

	27-03-2003 01:39									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Yeah, you gotta wonder about all those Nazis confessing to being a part of something that is fictitious...

Mel Gibson and his church say that it was a Jewish conspiracy to justify the creation of a Jewish state in the Middle East.

	27-03-2003 01:42									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Mel Gibson and his church say that it was a Jewish conspiracy to justify the creation of a Jewish state in the Middle East.

Really? I know a lot of catholics are crazy, but I didn't know it was this bad.

	27-03-2003 01:44									#56
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Don't confuse Gibson for mainstream Catholicism

He built a church in California and has a following of about 70 something. By no means do a lot of Catholics believe his conspiracy theories.

	27-03-2003 01:47									#57
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Do you have a source on his conspiracy theories? Not that I'm inclined to think that you're a crackpot, its just a statement that contradicts my impression of the guy.

	27-03-2003 01:50									#58
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Nothing to post online, I've been looking to confirm it myself. I heard this stuff on the radio. The whole conspiracy thing was something Gibson's father spoke of, not Mel. But Mel is doing a movie that portrays Jews as responsible for Jesus' crucifiction.

	27-03-2003 01:52									#59
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ok. He's always seemed like a nice guy to me.

	27-03-2003 01:55									#60
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ditto, that's why I was surprised...