27-03-2003 01:59									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel there were relatively few prisoners of conscience in the USSR post-Stalin. they existed, but comparing this to Stalin, or Mao, or Hitler, is silly.

Even so, I'm wondering why there isn't more mention made about the tens of millions of deaths under Stalin. Aren't they just as terrible as the Nazi deaths? Even if the U.S.S.R. wasn't all that bad after Stalin died, there should still be mention made of his victims. These people are simply ignored. Why?

	27-03-2003 02:02									#62
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more mention? I don't know, it's pretty much common knowledge. And in America, it's different because there are thousands and thousands of holocaust survirors that live or have lived here. There aren't many survivors of the Gulags and Stalin's purges that live here.

	27-03-2003 02:03									#63
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Are you kidding? It's impossible to go on any forum without people constantly spouting off about Stalin.

	27-03-2003 02:11									#64
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I'm not talking about common knowledge of people on the forums, I'm talking about common knowledge of people on the streets. I doubt that most people even know what the Gulags were, let alonehow many people died in them. However, the first thing that people associate with Nazi is "Holocaust" The only movie that I know of about the Soviets in WW2 is "Enemy at the Gates", and that made the Soviets look like heroes. Didn't mention that the entirety of their society was based on slave labor. Why not make a "Pianist" about the Gulags? I'm sure that there are enough tragic human interest stories involved to create a movie. I'm reading a novel about the Gulags right now.

	27-03-2003 02:12									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Sava more mention? I don't know, it's pretty much There aren't many survivors of the Gulags and Stalin's purges that live here.

However, there are many Americans of Ukrainian descent, amongst others, who have had families touched by the Stalinistic terror. I'm sure that they would like to make people more aware of what happened.

	27-03-2003 02:23									#66
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist I'm not talking about common knowledge of people on the forums, I'm talking about common knowledge of people on the streets. I doubt that most people even know what the Gulags were, let alonehow many people died in them. However, the first thing that people associate with Nazi is "Holocaust" The only movie that I know of about the Soviets in WW2 is "Enemy at the Gates", and that made the Soviets look like heroes. Didn't mention that the entirety of their society was based on slave labor. Why not make a "Pianist" about the Gulags? I'm sure that there are enough tragic human interest stories involved to create a movie. I'm reading a novel about the Gulags right now.

I think you're misjudging humanity, or just hang out with morons.

	27-03-2003 02:25									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp I think you're misjudging humanity, or just hang out with morons.

I think you are the one misjudging humanity. You'd be very surprised at the level of historical ignorance most Americans have.

	27-03-2003 02:25									#68
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Perhaps its different for me because my relatives of that generation escaped the Nazis and the Stalinists. I was taught about the evils of both. I often make the mistake of thinking that people weren't privilaged enough to be educated about history.

On a side note:
And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

	27-03-2003 02:27									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Sava And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

That same thing can be said for those who associate Nazi atrocities with the "Right"

	27-03-2003 02:31									#70
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I don't have time to read this so I'll just post this site. Someone probably already beat me to it.

http://www.nizkor.org/qar-complete.cgi

	27-03-2003 02:31									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Sava And its quite insulting to hear others generalizing people of certain political beliefs as being part of the same group of people that butchered millions. And as having been labeled a "leftist", among other things, it's very insulting to hear that "the Left" was responsible for such death. I doubt these very same people who make such assertions had relatives that were the victims of both Holocausts.

Oh, puh-leeze! Sava, you generalize about people all the freakin' damn time, so spare us the whining.

	27-03-2003 02:53									#72
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There is a differences between the deaths caused by the Soviets and those caused by the nazi's.

The difference is aim and intent. A significant portion of the deaths form Communism came from the after effects of failed economic policies (very true for someone like Mao). The one category that comes to mind are political prisoners- this is where people go comparing Gulags to Extermination camps, but the point of the GUlags was slave labor and political punishment: the aim of th death camps was death. Now, you may say : who cares, millions died either way" but the fact is that there is a difference. Once Stalin or mao were gone, the systems they ruled became less radical and deadly. Would the Nazi's have moderated their aim of wipping out millions without Hitler? People seem to forget the plans the Nazis had for the lands of the east. The Nazi's had figured that once the Soviet unions was conquered, at least 30 million slavs were expected to be starved to death, to make way for the Germans. If the Nazis killed less people than the Soviets, it is only because they did not have the chance due to the defeat of their aggression.

	27-03-2003 02:59									#73
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quote: That same thing can be said for those who associate Nazi atrocities with the "Right"

Such people are equally as mistaken and insulting.

quote: Oh, puh-leeze! Sava, you generalize about people all the freakin' damn time, so spare us the whining.

I don't recall blaming conservatives, Republicans, or anyone else I disagreed with for the Nazi war crimes. And even if I did utter such stupidity, do two wrongs make a right?

There's a very big difference between my own ignorant generalizations and accusing "the Right" or "the Left" of being responsible for a murderous regime's war crimes.

I'm just asking you to not attack people and make generalizations. I had relatives killed by the Stalinists after the United States and Britain sold Yugoslavia out. It's wrong and offensive to say "the Left" was responsible for Stalin's crimes.

	27-03-2003 03:05									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap There is a differences between the deaths caused by the Soviets and those caused by the nazi's. The difference is aim and intent. A significant portion of the deaths form Communism came from the after effects of failed economic policies (very true for someone like Mao).

You know, I don't really follow these political/economic threads all that much, so I don't know your political persuasion. But arguing for the moral validity of Communism over Nazism by saying that the deaths caused by Communism were caused by an inherent flaw in the ideology is likely not going to win you much support from the likes of Che and Sava, and would be especially ironic if you consider yourself a Communist. But that would be too much to hope for.

If so, it might make my signature. Thanks!

	27-03-2003 03:07									#75
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actually, GePap, much of the death caused by Stalin was intentional.Mao was just stoopid.

	27-03-2003 03:08									#76
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I'm not arguing the moral validity of Communism. I'm not a Communist... I'm simply pointing out how wrong and offensive your assertion was. And I also pointed out that Stalinism isn't Communism.

Are you so concerned with personally attacking "the left"?

	27-03-2003 03:10									#77
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Laws of the internet. Number 17.

Whenever the subject of the Holocaust comes up, right-wingers will make desperate attempts to threadjack it into an anti-Communism thread.

	27-03-2003 03:19									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel actually, GePap, much of the death caused by Stalin was intentional.Mao was just stoopid.

Well, there is significant disagreement on what stalin's intentions for the Kulaks in geenral, Ukranians as well, whether he wanted to kill them, or break them, not caring how many died (which is the difference). As for Stalin's purges, how many people did they kill?

JohnT: I am not a communist, though i am a socialist, and I have no problem saying that failed economic policy lead to millions of deaths- its a fact.

There is still a different level of malignancy between the aims of the Nazi's and those of even someone as terrible as Stalin. Stalin killed for an aim (total power), the Nazis aimed to kill, for their aim was "purification and annahilation".

	27-03-2003 03:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Of course they didn't recover 6 million bodies, many were cremated to ash! Didn't the allies recover most of the Nazi's documents though? AFAIK the estimates of the total number killed in the camps was based on the murderers' actual documentation, which they had failed to destroy before the war's end. Furthermore, during the Nuremberg trials the Nazis defendants didn't refute the number of victims, but instead accepted the numbers as essentially accurate.

There's no reason for documentary evidence to provide a reasonable estimate.

There was a large Jewish population in Germany and Eastern Europe prior to 1939. Where did they go?

	27-03-2003 03:29									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Frogger There's no reason for documentary evidence to provide a reasonable estimate. There was a large Jewish population in Germany and Eastern Europe prior to 1939. Where did they go?

To Palestine because there's nothing they enjoy more than stealing Palestinian land. Of course.

	27-03-2003 03:30									#81
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There is no question that the Holocaust happened. What happened to the millions of Jews? What happened to the thousands of homosexuals? What happened to the thousands of physically/mentally disabled? What happened to the political dissidents?


As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as respectable debate on whether or not the Holocaust actually happened.

	27-03-2003 03:31									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Warrior To Palestine because there's nothing they enjoy more than stealing Palestinian land. Of course.

You're lucky you're Jewish. Otherwise Ming would warn you against making such anti-Semitic comments.

	27-03-2003 04:05									#83
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Dear Orange,

I hope you still remember me. A long time ago we had a discussion about the Russian/Bolshevik Revolution.

I didn't have the time to read this thread. Yet I felt obliged to make a contribution to it.

There is no discussion among professional historians whether the Holocaust occurred or not. There is some discussion about the amount of its victims. But the amount of 6 million Jewish victims is well-estalished, though the actual amount might have been slightly less, about 5.7 million which is still an appalling amount.
For some reason the other Holocaust victims, Gipsies, Poles, Russians, other Slavs, homosexuals and the mentally disabled -of which a comparable amount of people were killed, several millions at least- are systematically neglected.

As any historical bibliography will tell you the most comprehensive study is by R.Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (3 vols., rev. 1983).
Yet that same Hilberg will admit that the Holocaust was used to legitimize the creation of Israel, the support it received from the USA after 1967 and the systematic oppression of the native population of Palestine.

Here is a small quote:

"Raoul Hilberg interviews

[Note: there are four interviews in this section]

Raul Hilberg, author of the classic THE DESTRUCTION OF THE EUROPEAN JEWS, is the world's leading authority on the Nazi holocaust. A Brazilian journalist, Carlos Haag, questioned him about my new book. Below is Hilberg's reply:

Today he is rather unpopular and his book will certainly not become a best seller, but what it says is basically true even though incomplete. It is more a journalistic account than an in depth study on the topic, which would need to be much longer. To say that the Holocaust has been used in order to secure Palestine for the Jews is nothing new and we know how important it was in the creation of Israel. Nevertheless it will be a bitter yet necessary reminder to the community. He is also right when he argues that nobody talked about this topic in the USA: in 1968 a well known local encyclopedia asked me to write an article on the Holocaust and they only wanted me to talk about Dachau and Buchenwald because they were not interested in Auschwitz; these topics were censored. I agree with him that people overestimate the number of survivors and that the concept itself is ill-defined - it includes not only the victims of the camps - and it is true that there an exaggerated number of compensation requests are made. There is something radically wrong in this exploitation because it is an issue that should not be used to make money and I must confess that I found the whole affair with the Swiss banks disturbing. The Jewish-American community is very prosperous and there is no reason for them to ask the Swiss for money. That seems obscene to me."

VALOR (Brazil), 4 August 2000

source: http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/id48.htm

The 'he' mentioned in this interview is Norman Finkelstein, who wrote a book 'The Holocaust Industry', a most important study.
It is an analysis of the relation between Zionism, Israel and the policy of the USA and their use of the Holocaust for political goals.

Norman Finkelstein is the son of two survivors of the concentration camps, I believe Auschwitz. As you can imagine he is anathema to the powerful Zionist lobby. I can recommend to visit his website.

Another important study about the same subject matter was written by Peter Novick: 'Holocaust in American life'.
Here is part of a review about it:

"Novick appears to be correct in linking the transformed place of the Holocaust in American thought to the 1967 Six-Day War, followed by the 1973 Yom Kippur War. But to understand this coincidence of political events, it is vital to note the fundamental political change 1967 marked within the state of Israel. With massive US military aid, Israel invaded Egypt, Syria and Jordan, occupying the West Bank of the Jordan River, the Golan Heights and the Gaza Strip. Zionism emerged as a major force of aggression and expansionism. Israel's socialistic pretensions were swept away as the Begin government pursued a policy of expansionism in the region. Just at the point where over a million Palestinians were brought under a military dictatorship, American policymakers embraced the Holocaust, carefully edited of course, institutionalizing it and using it to mobilize public opinion behind Israel. It provided the moral cover for US aims. This became particularly critical after 1973 when public criticism of Zionist expansionism began to escalate".

When I can help you with more recommended reading, please send me an e-mail!

Sincerely,

S.Kroeze

Last edited by S. Kroeze on 27-03-2003 at 05:00

	27-03-2003 04:26									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Nothing to post online, I've been looking to confirm it myself. I heard this stuff on the radio. The whole conspiracy thing was something Gibson's father spoke of, not Mel. But Mel is doing a movie that portrays Jews as responsible for Jesus' crucifiction.

Yeah, I think there's something in the Bible about the priests whipping the crowds to a frenzy, telling Pilate to release Barabbas instead of Jesus. But no, they can't be 'responsible' because it was really a Roman plot to make the Jews look responsible, so that 2000 years later some guy with a funny mustache would convince his nation to kill off 6 million Jews lose the paperwork on a few million or so Jews, ummm, errr, who must have died somewhere else, uhhh, by accident.

The Jews were responsible, but there isn't one word of scripture that says they are to be persecuted for it. The gospels were written, first and foremost, to convert and teach the Jews. It wasn't until a century later when a widespread Jewish rebellion brought disfavor that Christian doctrine started to lean to the antisemitic side to keep from being smeared with the same brush-stroke.

	27-03-2003 05:06									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Laws of the internet. Number 17. Whenever the subject of the Holocaust comes up, right-wingers will make desperate attempts to threadjack it into an anti-Communism thread.

That's not exactly it. I think that what the Nazis did was terrible and I admit it. You seem to be irritated that someone even mentioned Stalin. It seems logical that other holocausts would come up in a discussion about the Holocaust. Why so irritated?

	27-03-2003 05:08									#86
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Denying the holocaust is silly, but isn't labelling as a holocaust denier anyone who disputes the numbers or anyone who suggests that it perhaps wasn't the worst atrocity perpetrated upon humanity rather silly as well?

	27-03-2003 05:13									#87
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I don't think that the Holocaust was the worst atrocity. I think that it was the second worst. The worst attrocity was the atrocity carried out by the government of Stalin. Somewhere between 2 and 4 times as many people died in Stalin's regime than in Hitler's. However, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM DENYING THAT THE NAZI HOLOCAUST WAS EVIL!!!!!!

	27-03-2003 05:27									#88
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quote: Originally posted by nationalist I don't think that the Holocaust was the worst atrocity. I think that it was the second worst. The worst attrocity was the atrocity carried out by the government of Stalin. Somewhere between 2 and 4 times as many people died in Stalin's regime than in Hitler's. However, THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT I AM DENYING THAT THE NAZI HOLOCAUST WAS EVIL!!!!!!

Yeah, I'd much rather get shot in the head with a .357 magnum than a .44 magnum.

	27-03-2003 05:30									#89
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quote: The Jews were responsible, but there isn't one word of scripture that says they are to be persecuted for it. The gospels were written, first and foremost, to convert and teach the Jews. It wasn't until a century later when a widespread Jewish rebellion brought disfavor that Christian doctrine started to lean to the antisemitic side to keep from being smeared with the same brush-stroke.

I didn't really understand what the first part of your post was about. But seriously, I don't really care. If it even happened at all... I don't think that labeling the Jews as responsible does anything. It's just an attempt to justify bigotry.

	27-03-2003 05:50									#90
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Wow, I've gotta stop posting controversial stuff if I'm not going to be around all day. 3 tests in one day, fingers are sore as ****.

I don't know if some of you missed it, but I never said I agree with this guy. I just found it intriguing that he devotes his life to such idiocy. A passage or two from the site sounded at least partially defendable, and I decided to post a thread seeing as how it's a very controversial topic.

Once again, I am in no way denying or excusing the holocaust. Thanks all

:sigh: This place is getting too fast paced for me...