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Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
time: 07:27
  Old Post 26-03-2003 22:04
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Some excellent insight on how the war is affecting the ME Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Read the linked thread. Everything the Collounsbury fellow types is worth its weight in gold.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb...threadid=172697

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:27
Thumbs up  Old Post 27-03-2003 10:16
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He's good.

He confirmed what my general perception of the region, their reactions to the whole "WoMD" fiasco, and the current US-UK invasion.

He also confirmed my view that the GWB government has zero expertise in international relations.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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  Old Post 27-03-2003 10:22
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quote:

I've said in the past, he's like John Gotti running a country (except Sadaam is well educated, I know people who knew him back in the Cairo days). Not crazy, but mean.

However, that's a matter of degree in a region that has largely only known despotism, so mean gets respect if its even handed.

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 27-03-2003 10:48
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Yes - it really does look like Collounsbury knows what he is writing about. Really.

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 27-03-2003 23:17
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Actually while he is convincing in his speech - he mentioned several things which clash with my knowledge of reality.

He claims that the Us sponsored the Baath party via the CIA and viewed them as allies against communism.


That is very silly considering the Soviets always were Iraq's best allies, and to this day, almost all Russia's politicians and military chiefs talk about Iraq as "our ally" and "our friend".

To remind you - Iraq now has millions upon millions in debt to Russia (formerly the USSR) for military help they've recieved during the Baath era.

And this goes even without mentioning that the Baath is an arab nationalist socialist movement. Baath parties all around the arab world have always allowed the creation of other communist and socialist movements, conditioned they rejected universalism.

But by that time, post-Stalinist USSR has long rejected universalism and promoted the creation of Russian / Soviet myths.

Thus, the relationship between the communist-socialist movement and the Baath party have always been very very warm, and remain so to this day.

It is true that the US saw secular and nationalistic Iraq as a way to combat Iran - which at the time was US's largest concieved Islamic threat.

But don't forget it was not a love relationship but more of an "anyone who'se my enemy's enemy is my friend" attitude. Iran at the time, was holding several hundreds US hostages. Iraq was not.

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
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Sep 1999
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  Old Post 27-03-2003 23:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
That is very silly considering the Soviets always were Iraq's best allies, and to this day, almost all Russia's politicians and military chiefs talk about Iraq as "our ally" and "our friend".


The Sovietunion has been dead for a decade now and we all (should) know, that politicans are the best and bussiest whores on earth.

Therefore it is "silly" to draw the influense of old commies to much into this matter now. The new Russia can say whatever they want - but they have not power neither enough money to support their words.

Who CIA actually supports - only the gods know. I doubt even the american president knows for sure.

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 00:02
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He was referring to the 80s. I don't think there is any chance that the CIA supported Saddam in the 90s.

Actually, who knows?

Skywise is offline Skywise
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Jan 2002
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 00:14
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HA! Libertarian is on this Forum! Hehehehe Think I'll drop by and say hi!


Spec.

TheBirdMan is offline TheBirdMan
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 00:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Spectator
HA! Libertarian is on this Forum! Hehehehe Think I'll drop by and say hi!


Spec.


And????????????????

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 00:59
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quote:
The Sovietunion has been dead for a decade now and we all (should) know, that politicans are the best and bussiest whores on earth.

Therefore it is "silly" to draw the influense of old commies to much into this matter now. The new Russia can say whatever they want - but they have not power neither enough money to support their words.

Who CIA actually supports - only the gods know. I doubt even the american president knows for sure.


Considering that I was talking about the creation and rise to power of the Baath party, and their cooperation with the Soviet Union, and the CIA, I was referring to the 70s and 80s.

Park Avenue is offline Park Avenue
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 01:52
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Who is he?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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Jun 2000
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 09:02 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Actually while he is convincing in his speech - he mentioned several things which clash with my knowledge of reality.

He claims that the Us sponsored the Baath party via the CIA and viewed them as allies against communism.


Your knowledge of reality needs some help, then. The US sponsored the Ba'ath party against the former strongman of Iraq, who had allied with the Iraqi Communist Party. It was only after the Ba'athists came to power the 2nd time that they turned towards the USSR (probably because of the US's support of Israel in 1967).

Hussein was on the CIA's payroll in the 1950s and 60s. When the Ba'athists came to power the first time in 1963, the CIA gave Hussein a list of communists, communist-sympathizers, and suspected commies and commie-symps. Eight-hundred of them died or disappeared.

Ramo is offline Ramo
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Oct 1999
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 09:24 Visit Ramo's homepage!
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Ba'athism as an ideology resembles fascism much more than communism. It was originally seen by the US as a natural bulwark against the commies.

Az is offline Az
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Apr 2000
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 13:04
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quote:
Your knowledge of reality needs some help, then. The US sponsored the Ba'ath party against the former strongman of Iraq, who had allied with the Iraqi Communist Party

You mean that Gangster type? doesn't say much about the Iraqi communist party, then.

If baathism is a form of Pan-arabism ( it is, right? ), how come Nasser, and the baath parties of Iraq and Syria took different sides?

Sloth is offline Sloth
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Jul 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 28-03-2003 13:21
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On the situation in ME I suggest reading this article from the Economist

"IRAQ'S vice-president, Taha Yassin Ramadan, has a predictably low opinion of his fellow Arab leaders. Mr Ramadan, speaking before cameras to prove he had survived the first bombs on Baghdad, said Arab leaders come in three flavours: those who collude openly with America, those who do so secretly, and those who avoid decisions altogether, while unleashing their police to suppress popular rage.

The Arab public broadly shares Mr Ramadan's contempt. After a week glued to the gore on satellite channels, their mood is one of fury against America, pride in Iraq's defiance, and frustration with their own governments. They are shamed by their leaders' weakness in the face of America. Not only are many governments complicit with the war effort; their feeble diplomatic attempts to prevent war were less effective than those of non-Arab powers, such as France and Turkey.

Anti-war demonstrations in Arab capitals have yet to attain the scale of those seen in Europe before the war. Even so, given the range of repressive instruments in the hands of Arab states, both the turnout and tenor of protests have been eye-catching. In Sudan and Yemen, demonstrators were killed in clashes with police. Half a million Syrians braved foul weather to stomp through the centre of Damascus. Some 40,000 people stalled Cairo's main square for ten hours, dispersing only after police dragged off and beat up several hundred, including two members of parliament. The square has remained an armed camp in anticipation of even rowdier protests to come.

Two factors have emboldened Arab protesters. The first is that Iraq, battered and despised as its regime is, appears to be winning the propaganda war. This is partly due to early boasts and blunders by American and British forces. The targeting of a busload of Syrian workers heading home from Baghdad, for example, brought bereavement directly into Syrian homes. And the brief raising of an American flag over the port of Umm Qasr, a contravention of orders that happened to be captured on Arab screens, convinced some that this is indeed a war of occupation.

Arab television audiences have also been surprised to find that, in contrast to previous wars in the region, their own news channels are proving at least as reliable as western ones. Round-the-clock news stations, such as al-Jazeera, Saudi-owned al-Arabia and Abu Dhabi TV, maintain larger networks of correspondents inside Iraq and rarely flinch from airing graphic content. Iraqi officials have also been assiduous at courting the press, punching home the message that they are fighting to defend faith and fatherland.

The second factor is the failure of many Arab governments to provide adequately for their own people. Demonstrators in impoverished Syria are too afraid to criticise their own corrupt regime, whose only proven competence, in any case, seems to lie in diverting domestic criticism to foreign affairs. But other economically beleaguered governments are either less effectively repressive, or have proved less nimble at aligning themselves, rhetorically at least, with Iraq's resistance.

The shakiest right now is Egypt's. For Hosni Mubarak, the timing of this war could hardly be worse. Depressed for five years, Egypt's economy has sunk further in the past month. A 20% currency devaluation has fuelled sharp price rises, even as tourism, a big hard-currency earner, faces a wartime collapse. America has bailed out this key Arab ally in the past. It is overstretched with other commitments just now, and also miffed by Mr Mubarak's unwillingness to offer open support.

Small wonder that Cairo's demonstrators shouted curses at their own leaders as well as at George Bush, or that police turned most brutal when the crowd surged towards the headquarters of Mr Mubarak's party, apparently with the intention of attacking the giant presidential portrait that hangs there. As Syria's leader, Bashar Assad, said recently, being America's enemy these days may be dangerous, but being its friend could prove fatal."

Sloth is offline Sloth
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Jul 1999
time: 06:27
  Old Post 28-03-2003 15:23
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From Adrian Hamilton of the Indipendent:
"Democracy in the Middle East should not be understood to presuppose pro-Americanism. Just the opposite".

link to the article: http://argument.independent.co.uk/r...sp?story=391430

The phrase summarize, IMO, very well the real political dilemma of this war.
A comment from the pro-war camp would be welcome.

Urban Ranger is offline Urban Ranger
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May 1999
time: 13:27
  Old Post 28-03-2003 15:44
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Mr Hamilton is right. There is nothing that the US has showed to any ME person that would garner endearment. Propping up pro-US corrupt regimes certainly is less than helpful.

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
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Apr 1999
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 16:33 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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Well, I think it is time to ask ourselves: Can the administration really be so clueless as to not understand this?

And if not, what are their ulterior motives? Are they actually trying to encourage anti-american feelings in the mideast, in order to provoke more hostility and consequently the "right to pre-empt or retaliate"? Is this part of a grander scheme for US domination?

Sitting in this beautiful handbasket, it is not exactly comforting to see the fires in the distance getting closer...

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 16:41 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
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Promising democracy in the whole region while pumping billions of dollars to the Jordanian regime for continued support is also a good sign towards critics. And the fact that one of the world's most repressive regimes(much more than Saddam's) , Saudi Arabia, is still an official friend - (though not liked much) shows that the "old" politics still work: "It's a pitty that they're brutal dictators as long as we need them strategically."

But sure, democracy and stability will reign the ME...

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 16:43 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by CyberGnu
And if not, what are their ulterior motives? Are they actually trying to encourage anti-american feelings in the mideast, in order to provoke more hostility and consequently the "right to pre-empt or retaliate"? Is this part of a grander scheme for US domination?


Sharon should sue for copyright infriction!

CyberGnu is offline CyberGnu
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  Old Post 28-03-2003 16:44 Visit CyberGnu's homepage!
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Hehehehehehe

Sirotnikov is offline Sirotnikov
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Feb 2000
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 02:52
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Your knowledge of reality needs some help, then. The US sponsored the Ba'ath party against the former strongman of Iraq, who had allied with the Iraqi Communist Party. It was only after the Ba'athists came to power the 2nd time that they turned towards the USSR (probably because of the US's support of Israel in 1967).

Hussein was on the CIA's payroll in the 1950s and 60s. When the Ba'athists came to power the first time in 1963, the CIA gave Hussein a list of communists, communist-sympathizers, and suspected commies and commie-symps. Eight-hundred of them died or disappeared.


Could you provide me with sources I'm likely to trust?

Please note that my information comes from arabist (non-israeli) sources (an arabic site about the middle east).

quote:
Sharon should sue for copyright infriction!

oh please

you're not even knowledgable enough to know that Sharon wasn't in any government role during 1967.

S. Kroeze is offline S. Kroeze
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Dec 1999
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov
Could you provide me with sources I'm likely to trust?

Could you please -PLEASE, PLEASE!!!- list ALL historical studies not in Hebrew YOU are likely to trust, if any?

please....

Wernazuma III is offline Wernazuma III
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 11:55 Visit Wernazuma III's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Sirotnikov

quote:
Sharon should sue for copyright infriction!

oh please

you're not even knowledgable enough to know that Sharon wasn't in any government role during 1967.


NOTE: This side remark was from me, not chegitz.
And I was refering to Sharon's actions since the electoral campaign and during his government, which I clearly interpret this way. Unleashing the Intifada with utter provocation and then do everything possible to make the situation escalate. He behaved in such a way that the extremists on both sides could toast and congratulate each other.

GeneralTacticus is offline GeneralTacticus
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 15:27
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quote:
Could you provide me with sources I'm likely to trust?


Try this article from that bastion of anti-American sentiment, the New York Times:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...DAA0894DB404482

The actual article is here:

http://www.midwestacademy.com/Comment/change.htm

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 20:26
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HA HA HA HA

I guy posted to your pre-convieved perceptions, and it's gospel.

Including Che, still trying to pitch Saddam as a CIA guy!

Nope, try again.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 20:33
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Is that aimed at me for posting the thread or some other poster?

Edit: because categorical denial, without any counterargument, of an obviously hands-on assessment of the situation in the ME isn't going to cut it.

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 20:42
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No, I'm sure you wanted to show someone who is posting first hand accounts.

I'm laughing at the usual suspects, they whip out the conspiracy theorys at the drop of a hat.

Che is always fun for that, if Saddam was the CIA's bought man, why was he first Pro-Soviet and then Pro-French?
Guess the CIA wasn't getting their money's worth!

Some of the usual arab/israel guys posting in the usual way also.

I still look at things objectivly jaako, the war obviously didn't go as Rumsfeld wanted, but Bush and Franks seemed to be ready for that.

The only thing Saddam is winning is a piece of ground, 6x6 three feet across.

Does anyone here truly believe that Bush will accept a ceasefire after going to war without a second resolution?

It's Saddam feet first or nothing, people can protest accross the globe, it will change nothing.

Jaakko is offline Jaakko
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Jan 2000
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 20:48
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Ok. In all the hijacking that's been going on, I'm a bit lost myself.

Militarily this is all but finished (even though there's still a lot the Iraqis can do to make things look bad), but politically I'm afraid the Bush admin is about to park the whole show in the middle of a gigantic minefield.

Chris 62 is offline Chris 62
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Jan 2001
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  Old Post 30-03-2003 21:06
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He (Bush) either does it right or we will vote his ass out and get somebody in charge who can.

Americans have a rather short fuse with nonsense these days.

 
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