26-03-2003 23:44									#1
	Was Jesus for real? Full PM-box? Change here!

Disclaimer: This thread is NOT to troll or to frustrate people in anyway, only to get peoples opinion on the subject. I respect whatever people believe in.

I'm sorry to say but I think that jesus was nothing but a master of Illusions just like David Copperfield is today. He managed to fool people in thinking that he really make appear stuff or dissapear someother stuff and they beleived it because at that time, people were dumb.
Like we all know stories get bigger and more exciting from one mouth to the other. Just look at how it is here on apolyton. The Bible has been transcribed more then 100 times so who knows what the real story is.
Just take Saint-Nicolas for instance, he was just a guy that went from door to door to give fruits to poor children, now he's a dude all dressed up in red that only leaves his house on christmas, on a flying slay pulled by 8 raindeers and manages to give gifts to every kid on this earth in one night!. And that's only 300 years ago. Imagine that storiy in 2000 years. People could go:" Man! That guy is a GOD!! he gives gifts to every kid in the world in ONE night and he's fat like a pig and fits in any chimeny! His sled must fly like hell! He's the god of gifts!"
I exagerated a bit but you all see my point right?

I sure there is something higher but IMO he was a fake and damn good at it.


Spec.

	26-03-2003 23:46									#2
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Jesus, another Jesus thread?!

There is very little to substantiate beyond the Bible that Jesus even existed, so until I see concrete evidence of that, I won't feel any need to address any other issues.

	26-03-2003 23:48									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Jesus, another Jesus thread?!

Has there been that much? I've only seen one and that's what gave me the idea.

Spec.

	26-03-2003 23:48									#4
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Jesus Christ! Not another Jesus thread. (sorry I couldn't resist)

Anyways, before this thread gets closed, I'd like to say I'm on the same page as Boris.

	26-03-2003 23:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sava Jesus Christ! Not another Jesus thread. (sorry I couldn't resist) Anyways, before this thread gets closed, I'd like to say I'm on the same page as Boris.

Why would it get closed?

	26-03-2003 23:51									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator Was Jesus for real?

Of course - why do you else think Monty Phyton would make a movie on that subject.

	26-03-2003 23:56									#7
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To me, it seems very probable the founder of the Christian sect (it was a sect at that time) had his name all over the place in the founding tomes.
I suppose Jesus was a real charismatic guy who united several followers behind his guidance. I don't imagine several people writing similar stuff on the life of one guy if he hadn't been real.
Every religion needs a founder, and I don't see the Saints being them.

	26-03-2003 23:59									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To me, it seems very probable the founder of the Christian sect (it was a sect at that time) had his name all over the place in the founding tomes. I suppose Jesus was a real charismatic guy who united several followers behind his guidance. I don't imagine several people writing similar stuff on the life of one guy if he hadn't been real. Every religion needs a founder, and I don't see the Saints being them.

I agree Spiffor, but my question is not:" Was Jesus real" but "Was Jesus FOR real". You see?

Spec.

	26-03-2003 23:59									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator [b] I'm sorry to say but I think that jesus was nothing but a master of Illusions just like David Copperfield is today. He managed to fool people in thinking that he really make appear stuff or dissapear someother stuff and they beleived it because at that time, people were dumb.

I'm more inclined it to believe its people's exaggerations of the acts he did do as opposed to any intent at deception.

	27-03-2003 00:14									#10
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Over 30 people reported seeing Jesus after he rose from the dead. I would like to see Copperfield try that one!

Seriously, all religion has to be based on faith. You believe or you don't. If you wait for hard evidence than you are likely never going to get your answer (at least in this lifetime).

As far as I know, there has been no evidence overturned to disprove Jesus' being for real. The evidence to support it is several different eyewitness accounts of his ministry.

For me...I am a beliver and I have no problem saying that it is based on faith alone.

	27-03-2003 00:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Spectator I agree Spiffor, but my question is not:" Was Jesus real" but "Was Jesus FOR real". You see? Spec.

You mean, was he smoking something?

	27-03-2003 00:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO1003 Over 30 people reported seeing Jesus after he rose from the dead. I would like to see Copperfield try that one! Seriously, all religion has to be based on faith. You believe or you don't. If you wait for hard evidence than you are likely never going to get your answer (at least in this lifetime). As far as I know, there has been no evidence overturned to disprove Jesus' being for real. The evidence to support it is several different eyewitness accounts of his ministry. For me...I am a beliver and I have no problem saying that it is based on faith alone.

Far greater numbers have reported seeing Elvis alive lately, claim to have been sexually molested by space aliens and have insisted that the face of Satan was visible in the smoke from the WTC. Remember that you have to consider the source .

Saying there is no evidence to contradict Jesus's existence is inadequate. There is no evidence to contradict there being lots of things, that doesn't make them any more logically true than anything we can reasonably prove doesn't exist.

You'd think that, given the turmoil of his life, and particularly of his trial and crucifixion, there'd be some Roman records of Jesus's existence. There are none, which is odd for the ancient world's most prodigious record keepers. We do know that many things given as fact in the Bible, such as the description of the Roman census at the time of Jesus's birth, are not true, according to Roman records.

Why should I believe the Bible's ciitation that "30 witnesses" saw Jesus rise, when there exists no corraborative evidence for it outside the Bible, and the Bible is a propaganda tool for its authors?

	27-03-2003 00:45									#13
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It's a matter of faith, not proof.


"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen". - Hebrews 11:1

	27-03-2003 00:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Far greater numbers have reported seeing Elvis alive lately, claim to have been sexually molested by space aliens and have insisted that the face of Satan was visible in the smoke from the WTC. Remember that you have to consider the source . Saying there is no evidence to contradict Jesus's existence is inadequate. There is no evidence to contradict there being lots of things, that doesn't make them any more logically true than anything we can reasonably prove doesn't exist. You'd think that, given the turmoil of his life, and particularly of his trial and crucifixion, there'd be some Roman records of Jesus's existence. There are none, which is odd for the ancient world's most prodigious record keepers. We do know that many things given as fact in the Bible, such as the description of the Roman census at the time of Jesus's birth, are not true, according to Roman records. Why should I believe the Bible's ciitation that "30 witnesses" saw Jesus rise, when there exists no corraborative evidence for it outside the Bible, and the Bible is a propaganda tool for its authors?

Boris, As I said...It comes down to a matter of faith. On different issues, different people require different levels of proof. What I have meets my thresehold; it apparently doesn't meet yours. I have no problem with that.

If there was a definitive argument one way or another then I am sure that it would have been made way before our time. I respect your right to disagree with my beliefs and I respect you for exercising it. I ask no less for myself.

	27-03-2003 00:49									#15
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Thousands have seen my superpowers! Unfortunately, this assertion is just as valid as anything in the Bible. Maybe I should write it down, convince a small band of gullible yet fanatical people, and with any luck, in two thousand years, people will be posting threads about me on some futuristic message boards where a small, intelligent group of non-believers exclaim how an unsubstantiated assertion shouldn't be believed.

AHHH LOOK PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE OF MY DOMINATION

Attachment: xxx-irule.jpg
This has been downloaded 186 time(s).

	27-03-2003 00:51									#16
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quote: It's a matter of faith, not proof. "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen". - Hebrews 11:1

Ironically, this is the preface in the book "How to create a mindless following -- FOR Dummies".

I'm just being stupid now!

	27-03-2003 01:06									#18
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Is it all? I mean, is God merely a young guy wearing a black T-shirt? Frankly, I was expecting more.

	27-03-2003 01:09									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Alexnm Is it all? I mean, is God merely a young guy wearing a black T-shirt? Frankly, I was expecting more.

Well, I had to choose a material form that humans would understand and recognize.

	27-03-2003 01:20									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor To me, it seems very probable the founder of the Christian sect (it was a sect at that time) had his name all over the place in the founding tomes. I suppose Jesus was a real charismatic guy who united several followers behind his guidance. I don't imagine several people writing similar stuff on the life of one guy if he hadn't been real. Every religion needs a founder, and I don't see the Saints being them.

Except Jesus didn't found Christianity; Paul did with his letters.

	27-03-2003 01:21									#21
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Yes

Jon Miller

	27-03-2003 01:32									#22
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TEF pointed out a very important thing. It seems that Paul was the actual historical figure to make Christianity more than just a stream of Judaism, he was the one to make up the story of the ressurrection, and all the other supposed miracles. But yes, I believe that Jesus did exist, but so far, all we can make are educated guesses.

	27-03-2003 01:37									#23
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This is my mental picture of the historical Jesus:

A real smart guy who had some real good, moral ideas. So well-spoken about them that he eventually accumulated an band of followers that worshipped him for his views. When he died, his saddened followers decided to immortalize him by writing mythical parables about him. This cult eventually spread among the lower classes and least educated Romans until it was so popular that Constantine made this cult a state-religion. After the fall of Rome, during the Dark Ages, a powerful, aristocratic group of clergy gained control of resources and monarchs used the idea of "Divine Right" to come to power. As kingdoms grew and became more powerful, they expanded and became empires. England created a colony in a newly discovered continent. Eventually, the people wanted to practice their own version of religion fled and created a group of colonies in order to practice their religion. Over the years, criminals and indentured servants came to these colonies. They grew and then claimed independence from England....

okay somewhere I flew way off course and this became "The History of America"... I'm done... sorry!

	27-03-2003 01:44									#24
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And the same warning holds true here.

If you want to DISCUSS the topic... do so.

If you want to spam or just poke fun at people's beliefs... you will get restricted.

	27-03-2003 01:50									#25
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did you mean me? I am sorry, if I insulted anyone.

	27-03-2003 01:52									#26
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Those are the wrong arguments, Slowwhand, Plato.

It's fine if you believe without seeing, as Christ says to Thomas:

"Blessed are those who believe without seeing."

However, for these skeptics, Christ provides lots more evidence of his existence.

Boris, Sava, et al:

Read my source from the other thread:

http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html

They provide 5 independent extra-biblical sources citing the existence of Jesus, including two references from Josephus.

The most accurate account comes from Tacitus:

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

	27-03-2003 01:56									#27
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I don't doubt the existence of the man, Jesus Christ. I doubt the existence of the mythical "Son of God", Jesus Christ. Hopefully that makes some sense because I rarely do.

	27-03-2003 02:05									#28
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quote: I doubt the existence of the mythical "Son of God", Jesus Christ. Hopefully that makes some sense because I rarely do.

Sava: It makes you more moderate than Boris.

Ming:

Don't ban these people for my sake.

	27-03-2003 02:20									#29
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Wow... I've never been called a moderate before

My take on Jesus, religion, etc. is: We can't be 100% sure if religious texts are true. We can't be 100% if religious icons existed, or in the fashion described in holy scripture. So why can't we focus on teaching the morals rather than debating the existence of people who may or may not have existed thousands of years ago in a different country.

my 2 cents

	27-03-2003 02:27									#30
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quote: My take on Jesus, religion, etc. is: We can't be 100% sure if religious texts are true. We can't be 100% if religious icons existed, or in the fashion described in holy scripture.

By that reasoning, we cannot do history. We cannot be 100% sure that Caesar crossed the Rubicon, yet no historian would contradict the evidence in favour.

The question is not whether you believe in the Bible 100%, but whether the Bible accounts seem the most reasonable explanation. If one were to rate the Bible as a historical source, it would stand above all the others for this time period. By this reasoning, we should more readily believe in the Biblical accounts, then in any other history of these times.

quote: So why can't we focus on teaching the morals rather than debating the existence of people who may or may not have existed thousands of years ago in a different country.

Part of the problem is why listen to Christ if he is just another moral teacher on par with any other? Why trust in his morals if he is just another person? Also, if you believe Christ is right about some things it becomes difficult to reject him in the other things. Christ did not claim to be a good moral teacher, he claimed to be God. If he is not God, then is it not foolish to believe in the teachings of a liar?