28-03-2003 15:26									#1
	USA goes conscription... Suffering from ads?

What do you say girls and boys? USA reintroduces conscription and your all off to North Korea or Iran.

What fun , courtesy of Mr. Bush or maybe the next president if he(she) decides to follow the current policy.

Disregard my sarcasm, but really, it could happen. Do you think thats possible and what if?

	28-03-2003 15:32									#2
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Join the National Guard, then you'll be safe.

	28-03-2003 15:39									#3
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I don't understand the thread...
Is it a "what if the US reintroduce conscription ?" thread, or are there valid elements leading to think the US will really do it ?

	28-03-2003 15:42									#4
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Lets say i'll leave you in the dark about that one to get a better reaction

	28-03-2003 15:49									#5
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It's a what-if thread. Now, let's get the obvious out of the way:

[David Floyd]
The government has no right to conscript citizens!!!
[/David Floyd]

I must say that, while I normally regard Floyd's libertarian fundamentalism as simply loopy, I do wonder how one squares the draft with the 13th Amendment of the Constitution, which states:

"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

How is the draft not "involuntary servitude"? Anybody have the case law on this?

	28-03-2003 15:52									#6
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What about Vietnam?

	28-03-2003 16:05									#7
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Damn, you were really getting my hopes up by formulating the thread as you did...
-

	28-03-2003 16:12									#8
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I call that ADVERTISING

	28-03-2003 16:18									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Daz What about Vietnam?

Vietnam's conscription had the infamous exception for college students, which is how so many of our baby-boomer "leaders" managed not to end up there. Obviously we're dealing in hypotheticals here, but I suspect that any draft that included the college exception would be politically unacceptable today as being far too undemocratic.

	28-03-2003 16:25									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Join the National Guard, then you'll be safe.

Tell that to Sprayber.

On topic, I certainly hope that we don't fall back into conscription. It's not that I feel that this generation of kids wouldn't do with a bit of real world experience, but rather that the military is much less capable when staffed by endentured servants. This serves no one well unless we really have our backs to the wall. Keep the professional military in place, it works well.

	28-03-2003 16:37									#11
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Lets say the government decides to teach North Korea a lesson. Would there be enough professionals to do the job?

How many men does the US have right now?

	28-03-2003 16:46									#12
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I don't believe the US will go conscription. Conscription is intended to have a massive land army, with plenty of troops to compensate the lack of technology, or to fight a troop-rich enemy.

There is no incoming war which will need millions of soldiers. Peacekeeping operations often need many soldiers, but the US can rely on many partners to take care of it (other countries or the UN). The American military doctrine of having high technology and skilled troops will continue to be used, rather than risking the PR disaster that a conscritpion would be.

	28-03-2003 16:46									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Daz Lets say the government decides to teach North Korea a lesson. Would there be enough professionals to do the job? How many men does the US have right now?

It depends on the sort of lesson envisioned. I would recommend either not teaching them a lesson, or teaching them a lesson with a number of tactical nuclear weapons. IIRC total U.S. active duty forces are a little over 2 million.

	28-03-2003 16:50									#14
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the US has about as much soldiers as they have prisoners

	28-03-2003 17:04									#15
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Ooooo, yea, Sikander. Lets make the world a bit more polluted, courtesy of the only friggin country that wont sign the CO2 emmision agreement from Kyoto.

Back to reality, though. I'm talking long term warmongering here. I'm talking US policy to invade the "axis of evil". Why else bother calling the "axis of evil"?

There is never gonna be enough professionals to keep up with the new wars...

This is obviously very speculative, but a couple of years ago, nobody thought 9/11 was possible. Anything is possible.

	28-03-2003 17:10									#16
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Why conscript? It would be easier to do a foreign legion type of expansion. Allow volunteers from other countries to serve and give them US citizenship once their time is up.

There would be a political outcry about immigration but these people wold have worked, even risked their lives, to become US citizens. Surely it would be less controversial that the draft if the US really needs to increase its troop numbers.

	28-03-2003 17:16									#17
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YES! Hear hear, there is a wise man in this thread by the name of CerberusIV, listen to what he says.

I'm all for foreign legion, in fact let's do it, give me M-16 and let me be the first one to go!

	28-03-2003 17:27									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Daz Ooooo, yea, Sikander. Lets make the world a bit more polluted, courtesy of the only friggin country that wont sign the CO2 emmision agreement from Kyoto. Back to reality, though. I'm talking long term warmongering here. I'm talking US policy to invade the "axis of evil". Why else bother calling the "axis of evil"? There is never gonna be enough professionals to keep up with the new wars... This is obviously very speculative, but a couple of years ago, nobody thought 9/11 was possible. Anything is possible.

You call that back to reality? You asked me a question, I gave you an answer. Quit being a *****.

	28-03-2003 17:38									#19
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quote: Originally posted by CerberusIV Why conscript? It would be easier to do a foreign legion type of expansion. Allow volunteers from other countries to serve and give them US citizenship once their time is up. There would be a political outcry about immigration but these people wold have worked, even risked their lives, to become US citizens. Surely it would be less controversial that the draft if the US really needs to increase its troop numbers.

As an added benefit, foreign troops will be much less hesitant about firing on American citizens, meaning they'll be invaluable when domestic dissent gets out of hand.

	28-03-2003 17:51									#20
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uh Clem, and that's why they can't be used inside the US at all, in action that is, against its own citizens.

	28-03-2003 17:56									#21
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In Heinlein's starship troopers only ones that can vote and hold public office are veterans. One can speculate if such militarisation of society would be good or not.

Daz, I see you are a Croat. Where are you from?

	28-03-2003 17:58									#22
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Yeah, but it's not a movie though.. it wouldn't work that way. They'd be highly trained, super motivated troopers ready to throw their bodies against N Kore.... I meant who ever the enemy is.

	28-03-2003 18:03									#23
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Sikander:

When you say "nuk'em" what am I supposed to say? DO you really view this as a serious option? Do you think that in that case China would stand and watch? Do you think the US gov would even think about using nuclear weapons?

Did I give you the impression that my question was not a serious one, thus giving me such an answer? You could at least put a " " to let me know you're joking.

....you're not joking...right?

	28-03-2003 18:04									#24
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well Pekka your own readiness is legendary on Apolyton OT, but you are overestimating the rest of immigrants, they just want a piece of wealth

Plus, if USA really is the new Rome, army of foreign mercenaries would be the first sign of its decline

	28-03-2003 18:10									#25
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I see conscription as the only answer. One more thing. I think that the more the USA wage wars, the less people are going to join the army. I bet we'll see a negative trend in a year or so, after the patriotic hype has passed.

	28-03-2003 18:11									#26
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VetLegion, Not necessarily decline.. It will come a necessity at one point. So what are we waiting for, let's think about it and make the best out of it and work it.

Yeah, sure there are lots of immigrants who don't want to join, but they wouldn't join in the first place. There's not going to be a million man foreign troops for the US anyway. I would never turn down a good man who wants to fight for me for practically free. Why should the US do that? It's a good way to avoid the draft, or at least soften the blow and draft little less. Plus these people are not mercenaries, these are the soldiers of the US. If some people don't like it that some young guys are willing to do that, so what? Would they like it better that their sons and daughters would go? I don't think so. Free meat!

	28-03-2003 18:22									#27
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I'd sign up

	28-03-2003 18:26									#28
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quote: that's why they can't be used inside the US at all

For the time being.

	28-03-2003 18:26									#29
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I mean, you don't have to love the idea, but why be against it? If we would assume that it's not a big security risk.. then why the hell not? I didn't get any replys from mr Rumsfeld when I tried to email this to him.. I don't think he even had the time to read it or if anyone even gave it to him
bastards!

	28-03-2003 18:27									#30
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quote: Originally posted by DarthVeda I'd sign up

What's stopping you?