28-03-2003 17:42									#1
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With my 1900 scenario virtually completed and needing just a few tweaks to the tech tree, I am interested in iniating another project.


So a question:


Would anyone be interested in a Cold War scenario for PtW?

	28-03-2003 20:16									#2
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If you approve, I wouldn't mind help dividing up the nations. Assuming a maximum of 32 civs, how do I divide-up the world and should the Soviet Union be a single civ or several?


In addition, since any such scenario would be strictly modern-era and military orientated, I have had a few ideas running through my head regarding new military units.

*New nuclear units. Each nation should have different ones, and nuclear bombers as well as missiles should be included if possible.
*Long-range transport aircraft, for deploying your forces worldwide.
*A wide range of different infantry and armour which develops at a steadier pace (as opposed to standard Civ3 which goes straight from WW2 technology to modern armour in an instant).

As for governments, perhaps a middle-road 'fundamentalist'-type government could be used in some parts of the world....

More?

	30-03-2003 16:36									#3
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victor, I am close to done with placing 500 real world cities on el mencey's 362x362 map. I love the idea of a CW scenario, and I'd be happy to provide you with a start. If you're interested, say so. I can send it to you within a week or two.

Again, I really like this idea. Unfortunately, my CW knowledge isn't enough to give you significant help. USSR should be one civ, including all RL USSR countries. China should also be its own civ, and it should probably own Laos, Cambodia, and North Vietnam. Western Europe should be separate from the US. This provides good balance because there are two strong civs each with a slightly weaker ally.

Here is preview of cities on 362 map.

Attachment: eng.jpg
This has been downloaded 170 time(s).

	30-03-2003 17:03									#4
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Actually maybe the Southeast Asians other than the South Vietnamese should be their own civ. America shouldn't go to war directly with China if a war in Vietnam occurs.

Here are some civs I think should definitely exist. Some could be broken apart a little.

1. United States of America + South Korea + Israel
2. Western Europe + Australia
3. USSR
4. China
5. India + Bangladesh + Thailand
6. Iran (They have to be separate because Iraq was on the US side, as, I believe, was Pakistan. Iran was a Soviet Satellite)
7. Pakistan
8. US friendly Arab nations (Iraq and Turkey come to mind)
9. Soviet friendly Arab nations
10. Indonesia (I can't see them with Vietnam so they should be on their own)
11. N Vietnam + Laos + Cambodia
12. South Vietnam (If the US owns it, then it will easily be able to influence SE Asia. It wasn't IRL. So South Vietnam should be separate.)
13. Japan


That leaves you 18 slots, with just SA and Africa left to cover. I don't know enough about the CW to te I doubt you'll need them all. 2 important questions:

Should NK be Chinese or separate?
Should Canada be part of the US or Western Europe?


Thats all I feel like posting for now.

Good luck.

	30-03-2003 22:34									#5
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Well as it is I do not know the upper limit for the number of civs, so I am making a cautious estimate at a maximum of 32.

Preliminary civ list, subject to alteration is:

1) USSR.
2) USA.
3) Britain.
4) France.
5) Germany (West).
6) Spain.
7) Italy.
8) Canada.
9) Mexico.
10) Australia.
11) China.
12) Japan.
13) India.
14) Indonesia.
15) Iran.
16) Iraq.
17) Saudi Arabia.
18) Scandinavia (Norway + Denmark + Sweden amalgamated).
19) Turkey.
20) Pakistan.
21) Austria.
22) Balkan region. (Yugoslavia, Bulgaria, Romania etc.)
23) Greece.
24) South American zone 1. (Probably Brazil.)
25) South American zone 2. (Probably Argentina.)
26) East Germany.
27) Poland.
28) South Africa.
29) Egypt.
30) African zone 1.
31) African zone 2.
32) Korea.



As yet I am uncertain as to whether more can be added. If so, then Korea will be separated, Israel may or may not be put in and Malaysia & Vietnam will be included.



And for the map, I am favouring a 180X180 map with an enlarged Europe. Europe is still a little cramped (Britain and France, for example, have only 5 cities each) but it gives a good enough compromise with playability, I have found, and seems to work OK, especially since I make European land fertile enough to ensure large cities.
I will probably use this map and modify my 1900 scenario (with a few extra cities, regions and so forth) to fit the Cold War scenario.

Nevertheless, I am very interested in viewing your map.

Email: victorhadin@yahoo.com



The main questions I need answering are:

1) Assuming I add new civs, what is the upper limit, in PtW, for the amount of civs in a scenario?
2) What is the upper limit to unit types? I intend to make a very large amount of different specific units.

Last edited by victorhadin on 30-03-2003 at 22:47

	30-03-2003 22:42									#6
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To give you an idea of the dimensions, here is a (rather low-quality) shot of a rather earlier version of my 1900 scenario in playtesting conditions:



This is on a 180X180 map.



A new probem is that if I start the Cold War scenario in the fifties, the US will have a massive, massive advantage in the nuclear arms race and the USSR will need to work overtime to catch up. An idea I am working on is to have several basic models of MRBM or SLBM for the USSR which are extremely cheap but that will get replaced by more modern and expensive models later on. This would allow for a good nuclear 'catch-up' attempt.

Another idea (though possibly a highly dangerous one) is to give certain communist nations, such as Russia and/ or China, some basic, very inefficient ground units which require no maintenance, in addition to the standard units. This might encourage them to develop the oversized and underequipped ground armies that they actually did.

	30-03-2003 22:45									#7
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And as a further query (sorry for the extra post), would it be possible to replace the animated figureheads with static national flags on the diplomacy screen? That, I feel, would give this a touch of class, as nobody wants to see Queen Elizabeth representing Britain in 1975, for example.

	31-03-2003 06:31									#8
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No known limit to unit amounts.
The limit to civs is 31 so you're gonna need to kick one civ off.

No static flags have been made, but I think it would be pretty easy.

However, there are some custom leaderheads that would work very well - sween32 is an excellent leaderhead maker, who has created, among other things:

A Dwight David Eisenhower leaderhead (If you start in '59 or earlier this leaderhead will work.)
A Ho Chi Minh leaderhead
A Fidel Castro leaderhead

Check out his site here:

http://www.casperfusion.com/civ3/leaderheads/

The problem with the flags is that although you could probably get a US, USSR, Chinese, British, French flag on demand, nobody is going to volunteer to make the flag for "African Bloc II." Then you'll be stuck with some flags and some animated leaders, which will look kinda silly.

	01-04-2003 00:25									#9
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Should NK be Chinese or separate?

North Korea should be separate from China. It was more heavily influenced by the Soviets. In a book on the history of Maoism and a documentary on Stalin's reign of the Soviet Union, it was recently agreed among many historians that China was more of Stalin's pawn in the Korean War. China joined the war when Stalin played Mao into believing that the US was a direct threat to Chinese sovereignty. The North Koreans were also more largely supported by the Soviet Union.

How about having North Korea a part of the USSR?

	04-04-2003 19:21									#10
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Drat. 31 is just limiting... ah well. It's doable.

I quite like the flag idea. For the amalgamated 'blocs', I could either pick a dominant regional country and use it's flag or make an in-between, such as a simple map of that portion of the world as a flag. It's better than nothing, and certainly better than having inappropriate figureheads in my opinion.

North Korea as part of the USSR? Tempting. It would work well, quite possibly.

	04-04-2003 23:37									#11
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It could be interesting. However, as long as you can't set diplomacy it will not be a true cold war.

	05-04-2003 05:34									#12
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Putting it in the 1950's makes for a very interesting map:

A few suggestions: not too many European civs: not only is it crowded,but some civs really have no independent policy in it worth a damn. France and the Uk still have empires, specially in Africa which matter. West Germany is he linchpin in the center. Most other NATO states could be lumped together. Remember that the Iberian states were not in it. Portugal also had an empire at this time. Then there is the ME. Many states that could be seen as anti-Us were por-Us at that time.
For example, Iraq, Iran, and Pakistan all made up part of the Baghdad Pact against communism. And Cuba was still under Batista. Unless oyu have a way of simulating a lost of the revolutions ht took place in the late 50s, perhaps you should move the scenerio to mid 60's.

as for a list of Civs for 1950's scenerio:

Western Block:
1. USA
2. Canada
3. UK and Empire
4. France and Empire
5. West Germany
6. Turkey
7. NATO states
8. Japan
9. SKorea
10. australia-NZ

Pro US ME.
11. Iran
12. Pakistan
13 Gulf Monarchies
14 Hashimite Monarchies (Jordan, Iraq)

anti-US ME:

15. Egypt
16. Syria

Eastern Block:

17. USSR
18. Warsaw Pact (though it might make sense to break them up, specially given the Hungarian crisis of 1956. But if you have no way to simulate internal crisis, keep them as one)

19. China (but tensions with USSR growing)
20. NK
21. North Vietnam

Non-Alligned
22. India
23. Indonesia
24. Thailand
25. South Vietnam
26. Yugoslavia

Others:

27 South Africa-Rhodesia
28. Brazil
29. argentina
30 Mexico
31 Israel
This list fills up most of the Map and will probaly lead to much action in the ME, Europe and Asia. but without the ability to simualte de-colonization and the wars of popular liberation which take up so much of our view of the Cold war, is is an interesting scenerio to make.

	06-04-2003 00:16									#13
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Very nice, GePap. I might well consider your list there as it will solve many problems inherent in my previous list.

	06-04-2003 05:28									#14
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I would love to see a well done Cold War scenario for PTW! I like your ideas you stated in your second post about military tech progression and the focus on long-range airpower with varied nuclear choices. Very good idea.

I would vote to start the scenario in the late 1940s-early 1950's, just so you still have a lot of the overseas empires intact which lets you use a stronger 31 civ list.

	06-04-2003 10:54									#15
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Woops, i mean to add an Iberian civ, for spain and portugal and thier empires, specially inn southern Africa. Maybe swap with the argentina.

Even with 32 civs, things remain a bit muddled. darn.

	07-04-2003 02:04									#16
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Well 31 isn't a perfect number, but with some muddling (especially in Africa and South America) I feel it can be done.

Cheers for your support, guys! I shall make an attempt to start this scenario in earnest tomorrow, basing it off the back of my previous scenario (to speed map development & city-placing) and taking things from there.

But I may need some help on finding new unit animations, where possible, for new tanks and aircraft. I believe there is a T55 and a B52 animation out there somewhere, and possibly more. Such things would prove very useful.

	07-04-2003 17:39									#17
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New wonders and/ or small wonders may also be in order, perhaps.

Sputnik for the Communists.
The World Trade Centre for the democracies.
Space Station as a small wonder (Mir?) and/ or the International Space Station as a great wonder, perhaps.

Others will have to be thought of.

	09-04-2003 14:21									#18
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looks really good....I reckon the WTC should be a great wonder. It could double the commerce rate of the city?...Aswell as a decent culture level? Happy creating Victor!

	10-04-2003 17:02									#19
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Well good news. I have been working hard and the WTC will definitely be in there.




Here's what I've been doing....


1) I have created new building types to identify different parts of the world. They cannot be built during the game (although I guess you could sell them if you were daft) but serve as identity tags. They comprise:
*Western Europe Ident.
*Europe Ident.
*USSR Ident.
*USA Ident.
*North America Ident.
*America Ident.
*South America Ident.
*Britain Ident.
*China Ident.
*India Ident.
*Africa Ident.
*Arab Ident.
These are used to allow me to make improvements which can only be constructed in certain parts of the world. For example, the European Space Agency can only be built in Western Europe.

2) I have messed with wonders and small wonders quite significantly. I have added many, many more, both large and small, to do many things. A unique benefit of this is that wonders can be used as treaties so, for example, when the 'OPEC' wonder is completed the creation of OPEC will be announced to all and sundry. This is allowing me to give this game a nice historical feel as the formation of organisations and treaties in such a matter will occur throughout the game, following real-life events.
A great many of these will be low-cost and will supply no real benefit, but they give the game a nice feel.

3) I have created organisations that the player can become a part of. So far I only have 4 organisations; CERN, the EU, COMECON and NAFTA. Once the appropriate wonder (eg 'Treaty for European Union') is completed somewhere, the players can build small wonders which give them 'membership', with certain benefits.





New wonders/ treaties/ organisations:

OPEC.
Arab Monetary Fund.
European Economic Community.
Treaty for European Union/ Maastricht Treaty.
World Trade Organisation.
International Bank for Economic Cooperation. (IBEC; communist bloc.)
International Investment Bank. (Same thing as before.)
Council for Mutual Economic Assistance (COMECON).
Islamic Development Bank.
North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA).
African Development Bank.
Latin American Integration Association.
Alliance for Progress.
Southern African Development Community.
Tokamak Fusion Reactor.
ITER Reactor.
Sputnik.
Explorer.
Skylab.
Mir.
International Space Station.
Commonwealth Secretariat.
CERN.
Proton Synchrotron.
LEP Collider.
European Space Agency.
European Central Bank.
CERN Membership.
Single Currency Membership.
EU Membership.
COMECON Membership.
NAFTA Membership.



More will come in good time, and I shall put plenty of stuff in the Civilopedia so that everyone can read the history and stuff too.

But if anyone wants to make some nice graphics for the splash screens for the above, I would be very, very, very grateful.

Last edited by victorhadin on 10-04-2003 at 17:20

	11-04-2003 04:17									#20
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A few other ideas for treaties/important events or buildings/organizations of the era for improvement ideas:

Amnesty International(anywhere in western world?)
Berlin Wall(german)
Cultural Revoultion(small? wonder, communist only)
Marshall Plan(US)

Hmmm...those were a few that made sense to me. Hopefully you will like them.

	11-04-2003 07:12									#21
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Wonder: "Cult of Personality"!

	11-04-2003 11:00									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Azeem Wonder: "Cult of Personality"!

I was thinking of suggesting this one too.

	11-04-2003 12:10									#23
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This scenario would have been so much easier with an events.txt.... a few years ago i attemtped to make a scenario very similar to this for civ2... made alot of graphics files and events and labels and such, but when it got down to the nitty gritty, i gave up heh. yeah just my little side note.

good luck with this though, i would certainly be interested in playing it.

	13-04-2003 07:21									#24
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I've been considering making a cold war scenario forever. I was thinking of making one on a northern hemisphere only map, but couldn't find one/make one.

	13-04-2003 07:42									#25
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I think the ultimate cold war scenario would be made on a polar projection done all the way down to the equator at the corners, but that might be very difficult to create.

	13-04-2003 18:30									#26
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You are quite free to help in creating this scenario if you wish, Krayzeenbk.

I will, in any case, be quite busy this next couple of months, and so this scenario will progress fairly slowly, even though almost all cities and transport infrastructure are already in place.

My Email addy is victorhadin@yahoo.com if you wish to take part.

Last edited by victorhadin on 13-04-2003 at 18:38

	13-04-2003 23:27									#27
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The editor doesn't support many of the things I'd like to put into a cold war scenario, another reason why I'm reluctant to start