30-03-2003 00:13									#1
	Column #219; By Rasbelin Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The two-hundred-and-nineteenth edition of "The Column" is now online. Written by Rasbelin, it is entitled `A Versatile Game`. He recalls the comforting familiarity of Civilization II. The article was originally written and submitted in late September, 2002.

Comments on this piece are welcome in this thread and/or via email in communicating directly to the author.

-------------
Dan; Apolyton CS

	30-03-2003 01:17									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Good article Rasbelin and certainly truthful...but

While the vesatility of civ II is noticeable when comparing it to the non versatility of civ and civ III, the versatility of a civ title to me takes a backseat to playability. Versatility might enhance one's enjoyments through versatile mods where even slight changes make up new challenges giving versatility a but when the game engine of civ II, something that doesn't have versatility, is lacking when compared to civ III, it comes up short making versatility useful just for the sake of versatility. While the versatility makes civ II special, I feel it still falls short on the playability scale in comparation to civ III, which for this gamer, is more important.

You're right about civ II not taking up as much system resources when playing, and the ability to do other things while civing, but we pay for that in having an AI that lacks challenge. BTW, I can still search email, read forums, etc. while playing civ III and do so often though it's less convenient.

I might be in the minority, but I'd rather have civ III than civ II. Better AI, better trade, luxuries, resources that pop up later, and borders to me are bigger gains than the losses we get from versatility.

Now if only we could have our cake and eat it too.

	30-03-2003 01:36									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Good read and interesting, though I think I saw a few ackward sentences in my cursory reading (in that middle paragraph).

quote: Originally posted by badams52 I might be in the minority, but I'd rather have civ III than civ II. Better AI, better trade, luxuries, resources that pop up later, and borders to me are bigger gains than the losses we get from versatility.

i'd much rather have scenarios and MP

	30-03-2003 02:50									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by ColdWizard i'd much rather have scenarios and MP

Like I said, I'm probably in the minority here but...

I tried some of the scenarios that came with the scenario's disk, but for me a civ II scenario was more about war simulation rather than history simulation and I felt the two didn't mix well.

If I want to rewrite history, I'll play civ. If I want to relive WWII, I'll play Panzer Leader! If I want to replay the civil war... etc.

	30-03-2003 02:52									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

why relive WWII when you can rewrite it? but to each his own

	30-03-2003 06:05									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Not that I disagree with what is written.......but the reason civ is so versatile (even unmodded) is barely discussed.........unless Rasbey has that for a future column.

	30-03-2003 11:34									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

There were some bad game design in both Civ and Civ II that were never put under the microscope as the internet was not the giant that it is today.

One of the most infuriating things about CIV II is trying to send out a boat with a settler and/or explorer to another land and this made the city unhappy and going into unrest! Similarly, moving one unit from one city to another caused unhappiness while it was enroute. This was terrible frustrating game design and should've been addressed before it was released to the shops! In the case of the former, units with a zero attack should not make anyone unhappy, and in the case of the latter, some sort of border (even if it was internal and not official) should've allowed no hassle about moving units around.

	30-03-2003 19:52									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Is ol Ras the only guy submitting articles?

	30-03-2003 20:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Chris, don't you mean the only guy who submitted articles? Both were submitted back in sept 2002

	30-03-2003 21:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Actually I haven't submitted anything since last October. I've heard that Laz would have written something, but no other clues. I'm already thinking that I might write something when I feel inspired again. I'm really not writing these as my work.

	31-03-2003 04:19									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Any reasonable person that has played both games can only come to 1 conclusion:Civ3 is not Civ at all.

Better AI?..you must be joking right?
Neither AI is good but the Civ3 AI is given many more advantages AND many more restrictions on the human player and it still stinks.I have never seen these "brilliant manuevers" by any Civ AIs..The only half decent attacks I have seen in any version is largely by luck or by a scenario design.Not actually planning,strategy and tactics.

Better diplomacy?..ya, until you actually start playing.They introduced a whole new level of tedium into a game that did not need any more.

I notice a poster complaining about boat unhappiness in Representative governments in 2.Others have whined about this also.I think its perfectly thought out.It makes Magnetism an important tech for representative governments instead of a Civ3 dead end.There are +s and -s to each government form.

Which leads perfectly to my main thought on Civ3:
In 2,everything is done for a reason.It flows together in complex simplicity.In 3,it seems like a throw it together,last minute change type game.The tech tree is a joke.Wonders mean nothing.Exploration is gone.Espionage is effectively gone.Trade?..wtf is that?.Its like "Civ for Dummies"..no offense intended.Sometimes I think the same people planned Operation Iraqi Freedom.

I have tryed real hard to like this game(3).I have gone back to it from time to time.I've tryed patches,mods and what not.I just can't learn to like brussel sprouts

	31-03-2003 21:39									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin I've heard that Laz would have written something, but no other clues.

Laz has not written something, and Laz has no intention of writing something. Laz is still pissed off about the last column he submitted.

I take charge of my own work these days.

	02-04-2003 02:10									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Laz is talking of himself in the third person.

Chris is amused by that.

	04-04-2003 18:47									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Stinger thought only boxers talk in the 3rd person

	05-04-2003 02:20									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Well **** them then.

	05-04-2003 04:44									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Any reasonable person that has played both games can only come to 1 conclusion:Civ3 is not Civ at all. Better AI?..you must be joking right? Neither AI is good but the Civ3 AI is given many more advantages AND many more restrictions on the human player and it still stinks.I have never seen these "brilliant manuevers" by any Civ AIs..The only half decent attacks I have seen in any version is largely by luck or by a scenario design.Not actually planning,strategy and tactics. Better diplomacy?..ya, until you actually start playing.They introduced a whole new level of tedium into a game that did not need any more. I notice a poster complaining about boat unhappiness in Representative governments in 2.Others have whined about this also.I think its perfectly thought out.It makes Magnetism an important tech for representative governments instead of a Civ3 dead end.There are +s and -s to each government form. Which leads perfectly to my main thought on Civ3: In 2,everything is done for a reason.It flows together in complex simplicity.In 3,it seems like a throw it together,last minute change type game.The tech tree is a joke.Wonders mean nothing.Exploration is gone.Espionage is effectively gone.Trade?..wtf is that?.Its like "Civ for Dummies"..no offense intended.Sometimes I think the same people planned Operation Iraqi Freedom. I have tryed real hard to like this game(3).I have gone back to it from time to time.I've tryed patches,mods and what not.I just can't learn to like brussel sprouts

Shouldn't this be on any other forum, or at least in any other thread?

	08-04-2003 03:10									#17
	Remove this text

Good column. Thoughtful. Easy read.

Quick comment to Rasbelin --
With 4 "versatiles" in the first 5 sentences, you might consider investing in a Thesaurus.

	08-04-2003 13:33									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A thesaurus? Now that would only corrupt my mind.

	08-04-2003 19:40									#19
	Tired of ads?

Then you are doomed to uncorrupted repetition.

	01-05-2003 04:17									#20
	Inflate your Upload Space

"Surfing the web, reading messages on ACS Forums, retrieving your e-mail and playing CivII simultaneously is possible, while you can't do that with CivIII."

Alt-Tab? ;O)

	01-05-2003 04:21									#21
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

IIRC Civ3 didn't support alt-tab.

	01-05-2003 07:24									#22
	Remove this text

I did it all the time DrSpike, maybe it was either in a patch, depended upon the operating system or you need a better computer

	01-05-2003 07:25									#23
	Tired of ads?

It worked for me also.

ACK!

	01-05-2003 14:32									#24
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by badams52 I did it all the time DrSpike, maybe it was either in a patch, depended upon the operating system or you need a better computer

Hmm I am sure I tried with no success..........though it was a while ago, perhaps it was another game.

Either of you 2 using win2k?

	01-05-2003 14:35									#25
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by reds4ever "Surfing the web, reading messages on ACS Forums, retrieving your e-mail and playing CivII simultaneously is possible, while you can't do that with CivIII."

You can't do it that well and switching windows is slow then. Civ II is better for that.