30-03-2003 06:42									#1
	What should we build in Forkmouth? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

There's disagreement over this, and it's time to sort it out. What do you want to build in Forkmouth?

I'm neutral, myself; I can see the benefits of another exploration galley in the west, but I also want a Barracks. As long as the Barracks is the second build at most, I'm happy.

	31-03-2003 16:57									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Wow! It looks like we are going to build a galley.

	31-03-2003 23:41									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Magelleyan ?
Galleypoli ? No, wait, that's a place. Damn, it sounded so good.

Or should we name it with the name of a girl, like the sailors often?

Shelley ? Ally ? Leya? Gal Leya ?

Sinbad? Ulysses/Odysseus? Popeye ?

Or maybe a regular name this time (Voyager, etc).

	01-04-2003 00:25									#4
	Tired of ads?

Well, I'm okay with a galley, but as the head of the Airforce, I demand a barracks second!

But, seriously, we need another barracks...

	01-04-2003 00:30									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree, but with the building speed of Forkmouth, we won't see to many units built here.

	01-04-2003 04:59									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Agreed, Barracks next.

	01-04-2003 09:24									#7
	Got spare money?

Sharpe and I have been talking about Forkmouth in IRC, and we've found that the new galley will only be no more than 6 turns ahead of Galleyleo (that's with the poprush). On top of that, Forkmouth would then either produce a regular unit or spend a long while building barracks and then producing its first unit.

If, on the other hand, the galley build is cancelled and a barracks is built (also using a 1-pop rush) instead, Forkmouth can have a vet unit ready in 23 turns and can continue producing vet units and workers for a while after that.

I originally voted galley, but I now would change my vote to Barracks. Especially considering how military-poor we are right now. If someone invaded us with more than one galleyfull of units, we could lose a lot. And there are barbs out there, and there will be more settlers to guard...

Anyone else want to switch to Barracks? (Or I could open a new poll if revealing your vote on this issue is a bad idea.)

	01-04-2003 10:04									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The thinking looks pretty sound on that. I would support a switch to barracks.

	01-04-2003 10:52									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

I have voted for a Temple, but have no problem with Barracks. I truly dislike the Galley option... So, yes, by all means, let's switch to something more durable...

	01-04-2003 11:33									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

One vet unit in 23 turns? Wow! Now I feel safe

	01-04-2003 11:54									#11
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Tiberius One vet unit in 23 turns? Wow! Now I feel safe

He meant the first vet unit would be ready in 23 turns from now, Tibi. Forkmouth should be able to produce at least 3-4 shields per turn, if Farmerville is any indication, resulting in a vet unit being built every 5-7 turns from that moment on. That would not be bad...

	01-04-2003 12:05									#12
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: He meant the first vet unit would be ready in 23 turns from now, Tibi

I know. What I meant is that the reason to build barracks in FM is that "how military-poor we are right now" and yet the first unit will be ready in 23 turns from now on. That will help a lot our defences.

If we want troops we have to build them in Panama, Jackson and Legopolis. Building barracks in FM is a waste of shields.

Just my 2 cents; but I don't change my vote.

Edit: if I changed it though, I'd vote for workers. We need to improve Forkmouth and Sharpeheaven, the river hills around Legopolis, to clear the jungles around Red Bricks, Dye Fields, Legopolis and Jackson, to prepare the terrain for Benelux and other new cities, etc; there is a lot of work to do.

	01-04-2003 13:26									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Agreed, you do have a point that it is a little bit long term project. But I would sort of oppose using our core cities for cranking out units. One of them (Panama), yes. But the others (Legopolis, Jackson, soon Red Bricks, too) should work mostly on infrastructure and wonders - Sistine is quite crucial for us, as is Bach's... and there are other nice wonders we would certainly not mind building. So, I'd prefer having 2-3 "weaker" cities (like Forkmouth) producing vet units at a slower pace than one supercity producing them fast. That supercity may be used more effectively for something else, something that the weaker ones could not even think of...

	01-04-2003 14:17									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Actually Panama would be better for infrastructure (library, market) than Jackson, with all its rivertiles. IMHO Jackson would be better to crank out units than Panama, but in Panama we already have baracks, so in the short term Panama is good enough.

Well, I don't have anything against barracks in Forkmouth, only not so soon. A few workers to improve it (and the other cities), than a temple to let it grow (thus producing more shields) and only after that barracks and units. This is how I would do it.

	01-04-2003 14:25									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Agreed, Jackson will be better suited for units... we should build barracks there anyway, if only for the purpose if improving its defenses - our key city with Pyramids simply has to have an installation fully healing units in 1 turn.

As for Workers... I believe Frank, later joined by one other Red Bricks worker) will be enough to improve the Forkmouth area fast enough - the city does not grow that fast ATM.

And as for Temple... hehe... I voted for a Temple.

	02-04-2003 01:25									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Good points. Legopolis and Panama definitely need to work on their infrastructure; in fact, I'd avoid build a barracks, or too many more units, in Legopolis for quite a long time; I want it to get a Lib+Temp+Market and then a Cathedral, then work on a wonder (preferable Sistines). And Panama should at least get some basic buildings in along with units

Jackson may be a good site for buildings as well, but beyond a temple and a barracks, I'd prefer it to not build anything and concentrate on units (plus an occasional worker when it gets close to 20 food storage at size 6). We need military cities almost as much as commerce cities both right now, and far into the future.

As for Forkmouth, I'd like to keep it a military city for a while. Eventually it can build a temple and a courthouse; till then, we need some more military and workers from it, and it can serve that purpose nicely.

	03-04-2003 06:18									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

As per the forming tradition, I propose to change Forkmouth's build again. Sharpe and Zargon want another Merc soon, and Forkmouth is about the only place to fit it in. This would be just like the galley build scenario, only building/poprushing the Merc instead of the galley (same shield cost).

	03-04-2003 14:35									#18
	Remove this text

Hmmm... I strongly oppose the notion to change Forkmouth build to a Mercenary. I have already tried to explain why to Steve in a chat... but I see it'll be better to bring it to here.

Yes, we could certainly use another Merc, that's right. But I do not really think Forkmouth is THE city to build it in. Why the rush? Why poprush a unit that will be our 9th or 10th of the kind? What would we use this unit against? Against barbarians? If so, then we don't need a costly Merc... another Warrior, later upgraded to a swordsman, would be just fine. Against some kind of an invasion? First, I can see absolutely no invasion coming. Second, even if there was an invasion coming, we have mercs enough, we would need more of offensive units for couterattacks - it would make very little difference, whether we could field 9 or 10 regular mercs... plus, building another REGULAR merc is just wasting shields - keep in mind that units return back to their "out-of-factory" rank, when they upgrade... so every regular merc we build will keep returning to the regular status every time we upgrade him to something better.

I have no problem building barracks in Forkmouth and using it as a military town thereafter. But I do have a serious problem poprushing a regular merc there (and unless we poprush him, he would be available in like, what, 20 turns? huh?)

If we really think we need another Merc so badly, then let's build him in Panama. It will be a veteran and will delay other Panama builds by 4 turns only. That would be fine with me. But building it in Forkmouth is IMHO a very bad idea.

So if this is a serious proposal, I want another vote on the issue.

	03-04-2003 14:55									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by vondrack If we really think we need another Merc so badly, then let's build him in Panama. It will be a veteran and will delay other Panama builds by 4 turns only. That would be fine with me. But building it in Forkmouth is IMHO a very bad idea.

I agree.

Actually I'm asking for a long time to build mercenaries too in Panama, after the horsies.

	03-04-2003 15:41									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Hmmm... I strongly oppose the notion to change Forkmouth build to a Mercenary. I have already tried to explain why to Steve in a chat...

Yes, I did indicate your opposition on a merc to both Zargon and Kloreep. I felt that we needed more mercs and the only opening was in Forkmouth so as to not delay the buildings in the northern cities.

quote: I have no problem building barracks in Forkmouth and using it as a military town thereafter.... If we really think we need another Merc so badly, then let's build him in Panama. It will be a veteran and will delay other Panama builds by 4 turns only. That would be fine with me.

So the path in Panama would be horse(complete this turn)-merc-temple-merc-xxx. I am ok with that too, just as long as we get 4 mercs in the next 20 turns (2 in Panama, one in Legopolis and one in Jackson)

If we can get that I can support a barracks (or even a temple!) in Forkmouth.

Btw, if I am right and there is a landmass to the NE of Legos Minor and we do divert Galleyleo to investigate it, we might want to consider getting Dyefields to build a galley after its warrior.

	03-04-2003 16:08									#21
	Increase the size of your Attachments

No, Dye Fields should build workers, but we could build that "voted" galley in Forkmouth, after all

	04-04-2003 06:46									#22
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Agreed, Dye Fields needs workers.

On Panama... I screwed up here. I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote the latest queue (Horse-Temple-Settler-Unit-Library-Settler), as we have no need for the temple till we revolt or reach size 7. The queue should be Horse(Finished this turn)-Merc-Merc-Temple-Settler. The settler will complete a few turns before Panama is ready for another growth, allowing it to jump back to size 5 quickly. In total, it'll take 19 turns to complete the Mercs, Temple, and settler (4 turns each for the units, 7 turns for the temple), so the settler should be ready just before we revolt.

So, back to Barracks first in Forkmouth.

	04-04-2003 08:14									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by vondrack keep in mind that units return back to their "out-of-factory" rank, when they upgrade... so every regular merc we build will keep returning to the regular status every time we upgrade him to something better.

Not quite correct. Units that are conscript, reg, or vet always keep that level of experiance when they are upgraded; elite units are always downgraded to vet. It doesn't matter what the original exp level was, only what the level is at the time of the upgrade.

	04-04-2003 12:24									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Not quite correct. Units that are conscript, reg, or vet always keep that level of experiance when they are upgraded; elite units are always downgraded to vet. It doesn't matter what the original exp level was, only what the level is at the time of the upgrade.

Oops... just checked that with a test game... you're correct! I am quite sure I read once somewhere in the strat forum that units returned to their original rank when upgraded (I knew about elites being demoted to vets though). The problem is that I build regular units so seldom that it is sort of difficult to know for sure... all my units in SP games are vets after upgrades, no matter what.

Well, in that case, I would really consider sending our regular mercs to places where they can be promoted. It will actually be as fine as having them built in a barracked city. Once a merc gets promoted to a vet, bring him back and send another. Rinse and repeat.

	04-04-2003 12:27									#25
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Well, in that case, I would really consider sending our regular mercs to places where they can be promoted. It will actually be as fine as having them built in a barracked city. Once a merc gets promoted to a vet, bring him back and send another. Rinse and repeat

Sharpe and I were talking about this the other night, and he had suggested "Safari Trips" to Legos Minor. There are a TON of barbs there right now, so if we sent over a few regular Mercs to hang out in the mountains, they'd probably come back Elites in short order. Something to think about...

	04-04-2003 12:48									#26
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Sharpe and I were talking about this the other night, and he had suggested "Safari Trips" to Legos Minor.

I like that! Can I go, too ?