31-03-2003 00:22									#1
	Justice in the empire Increase Your PM Length

Now that we have a new form of government, it's time to think about how we want to organize the justice.

While in despotic societies a watcher did the processes, in a monarchy it is common that the King, as the divine assistant of the gods, judges what is right and what is wrong, assisted by the clergy.

[ooc]In a manarchic society with feudalism as it's basis, it is common that the dukes, counts and lower nobles fulfil this task for their civilians, the King judges in such a system in a dispute between the nobles or priests.[/ooc]

I propose to introduce a system in which the watcher keeps an eye on the people and brings those of who he thinks that they committed a crime before the king. The priests may, as interpreters of the will of the gods, advise the King. The King then makes the final judgement.

Aidun Cian the older

	31-03-2003 00:56									#2
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Good idea.

	31-03-2003 02:01									#3
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I'd support it as well.

Fernand de History Guy Calamari,
Assistant High Priest of all Spain
High Priest of Herminor
High Watcher of the Flame of Aur Lor
Member of the Council of Elders
Squid Baron

Long live the King.
Herminor save his gracious majesty.
Hip hip, hoo-ray!

	31-03-2003 02:36									#4
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I plan to give the primary judicial authority to the church, who's guidance and authority has allowed me to serve as King of Spain. As for matters of treason or disloyalty to the crown, I will personally decide such matters, depending on the guidance and investigation of my Watcher.

--Togas

	31-03-2003 07:00									#5
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Good King, I thank you for your mete and wise judgement in this and all matters.

As Chief Scribe of the Temple of Madrid, I have drawn up the basic plan for the Adjudicatorial system of Spain:

~ Calamari's Basic Plan of Spanish Law ~

King Togas
(Has the final decision on cases of treason, or capital offences to the state. Can grant repeals, or demand a greater punishment, if the case warrants it).

The Watcher
(His position is simply to keep his eyes open for criminals, and to bring them to court. He no longer has the power to try.)

The Adjudicatorial System
To Crown Second Only

The High Priest (Pontifex Maximus Tacticus)
[ooc]Or, with the advent of Monotheism, the Pope![/ooc]
(Unless the King wishes to intervene, his is the final word in all cases of law. He gives sentence based on the just code of Togas, in order to protect the common good of the people.)

The Adjudicators

Assistant High Priest Calamari and High Priest of Luna el Salvadore Aidun Cian
[ooc]Who, with the advent of Monotheism, shall be Cardinals[/ooc]
(These really remarkably holy chaps are, in short, secondary judges, or primary lawyers. At least...that's how they serve.)

	31-03-2003 14:26									#6
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The Priesthood is satisfied with the plan presented by Assitant High Priest Calimari.

	31-03-2003 15:37									#7
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This system seems good to me. Let High King Augusto Togas approve it.

Aidun Cian the older,

First Priest of Luna el Salvador

	31-03-2003 15:47									#8
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Weeeeell now, I believe we should create a system based on the wisdom of our Nobles as well as our King. A man should have a right to be judged by his peers. Let us create a great court to be convened once a year where one man from each noble family shall be represented, with our king presiding as judge. Here trials and disagreements can be sorted out amongst the nobles with the King as master with final say in this supreme court.
The peasants can complain to the nobles.

	01-04-2003 02:28									#9
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How dare you to claim that the justice is among men? Only the gods know what is fair and evil, what is right and what is wrong. As as interpreters of the will of the gods, only priests know how to judge in a just way!

Aidun Cian the older,

First Priest of Luna el Salvador

Last edited by Aidun on 01-04-2003 at 04:01

	01-04-2003 03:42									#10
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Hmmm, law system, eh?
Maybe this can end with randomic waterfall episodes...
And, hey, calm down friends, poor LzPrst is just saying what he thinks and means no harm to Spain.... He is a loyal citizen, as all of you know.

	01-04-2003 04:07									#11
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Yes he is only saying what he thinks and he does not mean to harm Spain. I believe that goodness is in mankind, but justice is not. Onlybthe gods know waht is right and what is wrong. Men are driven by selvishness, fear, jealousy, greed and revenge. They do not have the intention to do so, but evil powers awaken these forces. Only the gods can judge objectively through the interpreters of their will: the priests and through their assistents on this world: the kings. When we let nobles judge, we'll face a world ruled only by the sword insterad of divine justice.

Aidun Cian the older,

First Priest of Luna el Salvador

	01-04-2003 04:25									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Aidun When we let nobles judge, we'll face a world ruled only by the sword instead of divine justice.

Agreed. Well spoken, Aidun.

--Togas

	01-04-2003 05:22									#13
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I thank you, My King, and Great Pontifex Maximus, for approving this humble code.

Senor de Nunez, I believe you have a good point. You are a philosopher, sir, and therefore are quick to point out the inherent goodness, the divine spark, that is found in all mankind.

However, we all recognize this divine spark as being in existence, and granted to all (though more is, naturally, bestowed on those who the gods have given the reins of power). However, all nobles cannot judge, not simply for the reasons that the Priest Cian and the Great King pointed out, but also because, let us face it, if we go put forward the case before the whole of the rich, what is to be done?

In the Republic of the rebel Nothus, we would have such a system, but instead we are blessed with a higher one, that of Monarchy. The Monarch, and not the Nomarch, is the highest voice in the land. If all people with some claim to power or fame were to give their say, chaos would be let loose. If a family leader favored the defendant as a member of the family, or a member of a family with marriage ties, he would not vote against him. Likewise, family vendettas, as are regrettably found in some parts of Madrid, might also get in the way.

In the end, the only truly fair system of decision in the law must be that which comes from those who cannot err, those who are blessed and favored by the Divine. If we loose sight of this truth, we loose sight of what makes Spain: Crown, Country, and God(s).

Fernand de History Guy Calamari
Assistant High Priest
High Priest of Herminor

	03-04-2003 20:20									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Having thought over my suggestion I humbly withdraw it. I assumed a certain level of honour would be inherent in our nobles. As you have said, all men are governed by what they can hold and see, not what is right or just.

But can a priest also be clear of hidden motives? After all what does it take to become a priest? Can not an insidious man infiltrate our priesthood and use its inherent power to strengthen himself and his position? We must have a safeguard against such people. How can we make this?

	03-04-2003 23:07									#15
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I am sorry good folks, Senor nunez is drunk and has just arrived from The Iberian Delight, I am sorry he did not really mean what he said!
*Señor Nunez:´´No!!! I am not drunk,what are you say mphhhh´´Señor Nuclearis closes his mouth and takes him outside*
Oh, he shall be better tomorrow!

	04-04-2003 03:29									#16
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Yeah, Senor Nunez needs a good cuppa. He's obviously had one sip too many. (reaches for blackjack)

	04-04-2003 04:35									#17
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Señor de Nuñez, there are several cardinals and one pope. Priest have to be blessed and need have shown their goodwill, faith, patience, ability to forgive and the ability to teach people if such is needed. If a priest does not fulfil these point, he will not be blessed to priest. Cardinals have a huge experience as priest. It is almost impossible that a person that wants to do evil deeds waits for such a long time and is not remarked by the others.
If he manages to become cardinal at last, thete are several, so he will have a minority in the Diocesal Council, the council of the cardinals.
It can be considered as impossible that an evil oerson becomes pope without being remarked by any cardinal or pope.

Cardinal Aidun Cian the older

	04-04-2003 08:10									#18
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And if an evil man was to become Pope, there is nothing that can stop the Cardinals from forcing his abdication. If he speaks against the Word of God, and the laws of the Church, he forfeits his position. In fact, he is a heretic.

Then, alas, he falls into the hands of Cardinals Biggles, Fang, and Torquemada...and he rests, for all time...in the dreaded comfy chair.

Cardinal Calamari

	04-04-2003 13:48									#19
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I see and I agree, though I wish we could continue this discussion in La Academia as I dont want angry priests pelting me with rocks for my words here...