31-03-2003 08:20									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Lincoln This is one reason why we are hated by other coutures. We think it is normal to be bombarded by sex in every conceivable form. Much of the rest of the world thinks we are depraved. I think they are right. I can't even open my email box without being offered 10 or 15 opportunities to engage in some unnatural act with whatever or whomever. No wonder kids are so screwed up.

aparently the rest of the world isnt europe or japan. wait thats damn bloody convienent for your political agenda!

	31-03-2003 09:45									#32
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[quote]Much of the rest of the world thinks we are depraved. I think they are right. [/quote[

I suppose strapping a bomb to your chest and expecting to be greeted by 72 virgins after your torso hits the pavement isn't depraved because the people who believe it come from the Third World?

	31-03-2003 09:59									#33
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 So if we don't see anything, it must be there?

Please point to the part of my post where I said anything to this effect, or, barring that, please quit with the strawmen.

quote: Somehow I expected better.

Somehow I expected that you wouldn't have immediately resorted to jibes. Such is life.

quote: More intact families is partial evidence that things were much better back then.

I'd hardly take that as a given. From personal experience, it is nearly impossible to estimate how "good" somebody's family life is based solely on whether or not their parents are divorced -- it's incredibly presumptuous to assume that a "broken family" is necessarily inferior to an "unbroken family," even on average.

quote: As for the abortion rate, don't go there loinburger. In the absence of evidence, all you can conclude is that abortion has increased 10 fold since legalised.

Sure, clearly doctors were faithfully reporting all of the illegal abortions that they performed, so the statistics must be correct...

quote: Finally, look at teenage pregnancy rates? Do they not skyrocket after the 60's?

You didn't even read my post, did you?

	31-03-2003 10:03									#34
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I'd hardly take that as a given. From personal experience, it is nearly impossible to estimate how "good" somebody's family life is based solely on whether or not their parents are divorced -- it's incredibly presumptuous to assume that a "broken family" is necessarily inferior to an "unbroken family," even on average.

the last point I will disagree with you on

it seems that nonbroken families are better _onaverage_

I am pretty sure that there were studies backing this up (it also seems highly logical)

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 10:08									#35
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quote: That gos the same for countries such as Russu, and Jappan. All those country at one time were great, but fell. I’m not saying it’s only do to the sex, but the sexual behaved did play a large part in the mindset of the people.

Yep In Moscow, the women simply lifted their shirts.....And the entire country fell

I heard a similar incident in some Japanese cities at the end of WW2....

	31-03-2003 10:09									#36
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hmm

I have an idea for Iraq

Jon Miller

	31-03-2003 10:09									#37
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Speaking of which, read Mings "Patriotic Duty" threaed.

It simply proves Ming is out to commit genocide

	31-03-2003 10:10									#38
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quote: So, the key is sex ed ! Nah, just wanted to tease you with that.

Spiffor:

I'm not opposed to sex-ed, so long as they include abstinence education as part of the package.

And no need to whisper. I won't take offense.

loinburger:

My jibe was uncalled for. I'm sorry, and I'll edit it out. You can quote it in your sig if you want.

I quoted the strawman.

You have to provide some evidence that women did these things to an extent comparable to the number of abortions today. I don't believe this is so.

quote: From personal experience, it is nearly impossible to estimate how "good" somebody's family life is based solely on whether or not their parents are divorced -- it's incredibly presumptuous to assume that a "broken family" is necessarily inferior to an "unbroken family," even on average.

Do you have another standard? Lacking a perfect standard, we should go with an imperfect measure.

quote: Sure, clearly doctors were faithfully reporting all of the illegal abortions that they performed, so the statistics must be correct

Can you provide estimates for underreporting?

Do you have anything to say about my teen pregnancy claim?

	31-03-2003 10:10									#39
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I think that it would be better to analyse it from the perspective of "back then" rather than now. I mean, today, if a family is not working, then there is a divorce. If the family is unbroken, its because it works.

Fifty years ago, however, quite often if the marriage wasn't working, they stayed together anyway. They did so because it was the social norm to do so. You should, therefore, if possible, try to find out how many of the families worked well, and then compare it with the number of unbroken families today.

	31-03-2003 10:19									#40
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How do you define a family as functional?

That's a very difficult criterion, Dom Pedro.

	31-03-2003 18:17									#41
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 You have to provide some evidence that women did these things to an extent comparable to the number of abortions today. I don't believe this is so.

The point is that it is impossible, for all intents and purposes, to have accurate evidentiary support regarding the abortion rate circa 1950, since the data are innacurate (since abortions were not reported). The dataset is even worse than the data on the amount of alcohol consumption going on in, say, 1928, since there's no "Al Capone of abortion" whose bankbooks we can read (from which we can draw some rough conclusions on the amount of illegal activity going on).

quote: Do you have another standard? Lacking a perfect standard, we should go with an imperfect measure.

Why is a measure necessary at all? Even were one to prove beyond any doubt that family life is more miserable now than it was fifty years ago, this would still not bely the root cause of this degredation. Why blame sexual liberation as opposed to, say, the fact that the Catholic Church no longer says its masses in Latin, or the advent of computer technology, or any other of the near-infinite number of changes that have occurred over the past fifty years? Measuring the inferiority/superiority of family life over the past fifty years will not help in this at all.

quote: Can you provide estimates for underreporting?

'Course not. Unlike Prohibition, the amount of illegal activity cannot be accurately guessed at, owing to the decentralized nature of the crime being committed.

quote: Do you have anything to say about my teen pregnancy claim?

It's throwing the cart before the horse. Did sexual liberation cause the teen pregnancies, or did it merely expose the problem of them? Did it cause the abortion rate to incraese, or did it merely expose the accurate abortion rate? Did the end of prohibition cause the drinking rate to increase, or did it merely cause the real drinking rate to be accurately reported? It's nearly impossible to determine cause-and-effect in a situation like this, especially when it is impossible to glean semi-accurate data from the evidence at hand.

	31-03-2003 18:33									#42
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" and Monolith, I know many people who have very unmature attitudes towards sex"

That's your experience - I have mine.

	31-03-2003 18:43									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Mr. President [quote]Much of the rest of the world thinks we are depraved. I think they are right. [/quote[ I suppose strapping a bomb to your chest and expecting to be greeted by 72 virgins after your torso hits the pavement isn't depraved because the people who believe it come from the Third World?

I am sure that you are trying to make a point here. Would you mind telling me what it is? What do suicide bombers have to do with "much of the rest of the world"? Do you think that much of the rest of the world straps bombs to their chest?

	31-03-2003 19:30									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Tassadar5000 Yep In Moscow, the women simply lifted their shirts.....And the entire country fell I heard a similar incident in some Japanese cities at the end of WW2....

Yes, but those last few hours until the end were great!

	31-03-2003 21:10									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Olaf Hårfagre Let me guess that he lives quite far from the Canadian border?

What's that supposed to mean? FYI, Canadians can be just as prudish and moralistic as our American cousins, especially the English speaking ones.

	31-03-2003 21:19									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer really? then where were all the millions of teenage mothers? Where were all the children without fathers?

They were sent to relatives that lived in the country so no one would notice. To say that sex was more wholesome back then is ludicrous; they just did a better job of hiding it.

	31-03-2003 21:26									#47
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Look at the divorce rate of the 50-60's compared to now. More intact families is partial evidence that things were much better back then.

No, it just means that two people who can no longer stand each other don't just stay together because of what the neighbours might think. What's worse, having parents who hate each other yet stay together, or ones that tolerate each other yet live apart? I'd put my money on the latter.

	31-03-2003 21:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 You have to provide some evidence that women did these things to an extent comparable to the number of abortions today. I don't believe this is so.

And how many women suffered permanent damage or even lost their lives because they went to a back-street abortionist then? Of course those numbers won't come up, the whole issue was clouded in secrecy and hushed up. If it looks like the numbers have gone up, it's just because they're actually being reported now; back then everything was just swept under the rug and denied.

	01-04-2003 03:48									#49
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quote: The point is that it is impossible, for all intents and purposes, to have accurate evidentiary support regarding the abortion rate circa 1950, since the data are innacurate (since abortions were not reported). The dataset is even worse than the data on the amount of alcohol consumption going on in, say, 1928, since there's no "Al Capone of abortion" whose bankbooks we can read (from which we can draw some rough conclusions on the amount of illegal activity going on).

loinburger:

Inaccurate estimates are better than no estimates at all.
Do you really want me to post these inaccurate estimates?

quote: And how many women suffered permanent damage or even lost their lives because they went to a back-street abortionist then? Of course those numbers won't come up, the whole issue was clouded in secrecy and hushed up. If it looks like the numbers have gone up, it's just because they're actually being reported now; back then everything was just swept under the rug and denied.

Willem:
I say the numbers of abortions have increased 10x since legalised. Can you refute my assertion?

	01-04-2003 04:30									#50
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quote: I say the numbers of abortions have increased 10x since legalised. Can you refute my assertion?

quote: Inaccurate estimates are better than no estimates at all. Do you really want me to post these inaccurate estimates?

I don't know was it intentional or not, but it seems that you missed their point.

	01-04-2003 04:32									#51
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I heard that for every guy that ****s, he contributes to the kitten genocide. Is this true?

	01-04-2003 04:37									#52
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100 years ago there was no such thing as teen mother...cause being 16 , married and with kids was al right!

Oh, and wasn't the age of consent for many places as low as 12 just a few decades ago?

yup, those were the golden times of sexual purity, yeah sir, yup, not doubt, of course, ....

	01-04-2003 04:50									#53
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Tuomerahu:

Thanks... I need to be more clear.

The Supreme court used data presented before them showing 'rampant' illegal abortion numbers to validate Roe v. Wade. There have been a number of analyses done on this submission, all confirming that these estimates are inflated.

It is not impossible to come up with an estimate...that's the point I'm trying to make, it has been done, and has been submitted before the Supreme Court of the US for evidence.

SCOTUS used evidence from Tietze, estimating illegal abortions at around 1 million per year, while a more accurate assessment authored by Dr. T. Hilgers from Creighton University, estimated the figure at or somewhere near 100,000 abortions annually in the U.S.

Last edited by Ben Kenobi on 01-04-2003 at 05:32

	01-04-2003 05:22									#54
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Obi, thanks. I just can't stand it when people are referring to some data without providing the source: for me, you either show your cards to the table or keep your mouth shut, since it makes compiling information much simplier and easier. After all, I don't know very much of this myself.

I'll wait and see if somebody posts here some opposing info about the subject, of course, to be sure.

	01-04-2003 05:34									#55
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Found what I was looking for.

Beckwith.

http://www.roevwade.org/myths2.html

	01-04-2003 05:58									#56
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quote: Originally posted by GePap 100 years ago there was no such thing as teen mother...cause being 16 , married and with kids was al right! Oh, and wasn't the age of consent for many places as low as 12 just a few decades ago? yup, those were the golden times of sexual purity, yeah sir, yup, not doubt, of course, ....

Well these tendencies tend to surge and disappear again in time... Much of the purity comes from the nineenth-early twentieth century where chastity was an absolute virtue... sexuality is now becoming a more open issue etc but you'll see that it'll go back into a position where everything relating to sex will be forbidden...


I'm not saying the 40-50 period was a good age concerning this issue, because back then the man was still very superior to a woman, just check advertisements from the fifties... women were regarded a bit inferior to the money making man!!!

All that "opening the door for the lady" and all that meaningless behaviour (being exceptionally polite) to women originates frmo the middle ages, where women were regarded as "the cure" for their disease, which was love, and so they were treated like they were godesses, but in fact they had nothing to say...

Anyway that kind of being polite will disappear in time as well
But it will all come back, so why are people annoyed with all these teens having sex earlier and earlier... it'll go over in time!

	01-04-2003 06:01									#57
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Of course, people are having sex much earlier, and they're getting married and **** a lot later which is kinda odd of course...

I heard the average age to have sex is what 15 years now??
And people getting married, in Belgium, many wait until they are 30 or older...

	01-04-2003 22:21									#58
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quote: Originally posted by obiwan18 Inaccurate estimates are better than no estimates at all.

Here's my inaccurate estimate. 8 billion, annually.

quote: I say the numbers of abortions have increased 10x since legalised. Can you refute my assertion?

I say that fairies live at the bottom of my garden, and that I shot JFK because he made disparaging comments about the fact that I consider the cure for the world's problems to be acorns. Can you refute that?

	01-04-2003 22:38									#59
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Ah, forget the sex of the 40's and 50's, bring here the sex of the 60's!

	01-04-2003 22:51									#60
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Now I can say that underage sex and sex before marrage can bring a lot of problems, such as children born out wedlock and unwanted, STDs, and host of other things, but gencide? Were did this come from?